Breech seating with PP

[Cat Whisperer]

What are your experiences with breech seating PP bullets?

[John Boy]

Cat, I haven't tried it yet but ... here's my thoughts.

* ... A Safety Cartridge Seater that I bought for the Sharps ... http://www.mtintouch.net/~livn4god/Seater.htm
* ... Measure the length of each different bullet that is to be engraved
* ... Make up dummy cartridges with studs that will be the OAL for each different bullet to be seated in the bore with about 1/8" of the base not engraved (Harry Pope's seated distance)
* ... Chamber a loaded cartridge (BP with a fiber wad on top of a grease wad) to the base of the engraved bullet
Close the block and pull the trigger

[Lead pot]

John I dont think that is what CW is talking about. This is a breach seating tool.

CW I breach seat  GG and PP bullets, and it improves accuracy but the loading time is critical during a match it will slow you down some.
I don't know if your wanting to breach seat with smokeless or black powder the procedures will be a little different. In the picture that round is loaded with BP. notice the wad is at the very end of the case so when the tool is adjusted properly the whole bullet is engraved into the rifling and the case is in light contact with the bullet base.
When I breach seat a PP bullet lets say for the .40-70 that bullet is swaged to .398" and wrapped to .405, that is were I get the best accuracy for the Shiloh I use that load in.
For the .45-90 and the .50-90 the bullet in my case run from .002 over bore diameter to groove diameter.
Most of my swage dies are cut for the breach seated bullet. For the PP bullet seated in the case I patch to .002 under bore.

Kurt

[John Boy]

Kurt, my thoughts using the Safety Cartridge Seater, I believe, would produce the same results for breech seating that CW is asking about.
... The bullet would be pushed into the bore for engraving by the Seater using an empty case with a measured stud to seat the bullet.  The PP'ed bullet would be 0.003 over bore diameter
... Then a charged case (primer-powder-grease wad and fiber wad at the mouth) would be put into the chamber so the case mouth would be touching the bullet base.
For black powder rounds only

Hey, if I'm all wet with the concept ... Let me know

[Lead pot]

"Hey, if I'm all wet with the concept ... Let me know"
Well John I wouldn't put it that strong, but you are.
Think about this, when you use that cartridge seater your pushing that bullet more or less unsupported into the chamber and you are also putting additional powder compression and also deforming the bullet base and side walls, and not only that there might also be bullet run off from bullet seating that is compounded.
And  another thing is the space between the case end and the 45 deg angle at the chamber end that will allow the bullet obtrude into that void and cut the patch leaving the portion that was in the case uncovered as the bullet travels down the bore and that will ruin the accuracy after a few shots.
A breach seating tool will completely support the bullet with a square base that matches the bullet diameter and base when when it is pushed into the land and the bullet base is beyond the chamber end so there is no obtruding into a void at the chamber end that will get shaved off or the patch gets cut.
I have one of those cartridge seaters I made myself and they will get you out of a bind when your on line shooting in a match and your chamber fouls out and the round wont eject or the bullet stays behind when you do get the case out and you have to take the rifle off line to get the stuck bullet out, the tool has a place but not using it like a breach seater. I have never had consistent accuracy when I used the camming tool to seat a cartirdge, it just dont happen.

Kurt

[John Boy]

Well John I wouldn't put it that strong, but you are... when I used the camming tool to seat a cartirdge, it just dont happen.

Kurt, not to worry none ... being new to PP'ing and having shot less then a hundred... I'm not thin skinned and always open for advice from those that know better than me  
Thanks for the good advice.  Looks like a now have to find me a good breech seating tool.

[Cat Whisperer]

I'm shooting smokeless powder.  Kurt, thanks for the picture of your seater - I'm in the process of buiding/designing several.

Here's a link to the breech seater I have that came with my .375 Winchester chambered Ruger #3.  I have a #1 in .375 H&H and several others for which I'm redesigning the tool to eliminate the cam by using ball bearings (should be much smoother).

Many folks in Schuetzen riflery use breech seaters, but not too many also paper patch.  That's why I asked, because by paper patching you have less limitations with velocity and can swage the bullets too.

The idea of the safety cartridge seater is important, as I'm also building seaters for the NEF Handi-Rifles for a match coming up in June.  Everything helps.

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175219720

[Cat Whisperer]

Kurt -

How do you like the action of pulling back on the lever?  I'm building mine so I can push forward.  I do like the compactness of your design.

AND, do you find that you can achieve better or worse accuracy (than cast) with paper patching?  Can I assume that one can get approximately the same accuracy as with jacketed?

[Lead pot]

CW.
That is an interesting design you have there.
The tool I'm using is for a falling block action, and my tool will work for the High Wall and the Sharps action and the way the cam is set up on this tool it takes very little afford to push a groove diameter bullet in.
I like the pull back action of the lever because I can keep the locking lug were it belongs with out concentrating on that function and I have control of the tool but I could get used to it.
This tool I can lock the cam left or right. On the Sharps for instance the big hammer gets in the way so I cam it left and also for clearing a scope.
Years ago I had a tool like the top one in the picture you posted for my .32-40 Schuetzen rifle but I sold it with the rifle, but there seemed to be a lot of stress when first camming the bullet till it just about went past center, but it was a great working tool.
Yes the accuracy is better using the tool. CW because there is less distortion of the bullet when it is in transition from the case to the throat to the lead, were it gets swaged back down to groove diameter. When you breach seat the whole bullet side wall is supported at all times with out flexing by obtruding like when it is fired from a case.
I swage my .40, .44, .45, and .50 PP bullets I have PP moulds but I keep them in storage.
I can make a prefect bullet a lot faster swagging then casting.
For a smokeless load it would be a lot easier load for then for black, you charge your case with powder and get a small cork or plug for transit remove the plug and load keeping the muzzle elevated. You don't need to have the bullet seated precisely because of a gap between the wad and the bullet base in a black powder case being to far away from the bullet base
Kurt

[Cat Whisperer]

Kurt - Thanks -
More questions soon, here's the latest -

Working on the front end now.  Still very much prototype.

Aluminum block is getting smaller will get smaller too.

Shaft is 17-4 prehardened which is a bear to tap but I'll add a lug  to rotate into the space vacated by the falling block to work against the lever for seating.  Body is 5/8" dia. and tail piece is 1/2".  Need a little more clearance at one spot (just in front of the safety) for the 1/2" to clear.  Milled a flat on one side of the front for the locking lug.  Still planning on 1/4" shaft down the center, with adjustment somewhere.

Rifle is a Ruger #1 Tropical in .458M.  All my others have scopes but I ASSUME are of the same dimensions.



Added last clearance cut.  Best part of this is that one can look through the  hole for the push-rod and it lines right up with the bore!