You knew it had to come up.

[Fred M]

Mac.
What I have to say here, these long Page writings without pargraphs is very boreing and hard to read. There should be no more than four sentenses in a paragraph or when a new thaught is introduced.

This way you can go back to the paragraph without reading the whole page. Many times I don't even bother to read one page articles.

I have broken up the writing below for better reading.

Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #58 on: Today at 07:41:10 AM »  

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Quote from: MSP Ret on Today at 05:28:12 AM
I disagree completely with your following statement Mac, "it's always a 50-50 chance with any gun you buy". If the best you could do was a 50-50 chance that any new gun you buy was good then gun companies would go out of business very fast.

Even the russian made guns with their problematic quality control do better than that. I have to say that is an incorrect statement at best and wonder why you would say it and what recent incident or change in feelings lies behind that blanket statement?

You surely don't believe that do you, that fully 50% of all guns that you buy or are produced are defective in some way? Do you also believe that about all other items you buy or is it just guns and H&R's in particular that are no longer any good.

 You seem to have completely changed from liking them to disliking them in a rather short period of time, what happened all of a sudden to make 50% of all guns defective ?....<><....  

I have to say I myself do not know what keeps me coming back the this thread, perhaps it is just the desire to stand up for these fine guns against the recent attacks in favor of the CVA's.

I do wish the recent pro CVA talk and promotion and anti H&R talk would be kept on the new CVA forum and we could discuss H&R's and NEF's in a continued objective and more positive light here.

 I realize this thread was not begun to be devisive and the member that started it has my upmost respect, however it has been turned into somrthing it was not intended to be, to the point of even telling a visiting GB member who was, and hopefully still is, interested in Handi Rifles that there is only a 50-50 chance of getting a good one!!!

I have nothing against the Spanish CVA's, if you want to buy one and shoot it do so. Lets discuss H&R's and NEF's on this site and lets do it with an open and objective mind, not with blanket statements like 50% of all guns produced are produced with problems....<><....  

No...what I am saying is no one can ever be 100% certain any rifle they buy will be fine...No matter if they pay $250 dollars...or $25,000 dollars for them...Every manufacture has issues...Every manufacture has different guns and calibers that do better than one of their own in the same make.

 Period...Flip a dam coin and see which side comes up...I am not saying 50% of the guns will be bad...it's about the odds of him buying a perfect rifle......READ WHAT I SAID...

If you have some magic way of knowing 100% of the time you will not get one Andy...Then share how you can...If you think for 1 second I am going to sugar coat all the issues the Handi's have... then think again buddy...It ain't happening...wither you like it or not......

If the CVA's turn out to be problematic...then by Jimminey I'll be telling it like it is about them. If someone starts a comparison thread there...or here...I will say what is own my mind and tell them the truth to the best of my ability...The good...and the BAD..

 Andy...you sure as heck don't have a problem going to any of the other forums and voicing your opinion there do you...Then don't you dare be a hypocrite with me on this for telling anyone the truth on my own forum.......

I have defended these rifles as long and in most cases longer than anyone here has...and on all of the various forums....I do have reasons for my actions with these rifles...

I have high hopes that Marlin will take notice that even if a big a fan as my self and others here is that  PO'd to start moving away from the NEF's...that they will start to listen...and hopefully they will start putting money into the NEF plant...

Then...let those fine folks who work there make these rifles better...instead of letting the plant machinery run down as they are doing right now......I know if what is being done in the Bergara plant on the Elite barrels makes them better..... it damn sure can be done on the Handi's if they would start investing and if they started modernizing the plant...

Look closely at the barrel being tested for quality control in the video here about 3/4 the way thru the clip..http://www.bergarabarrels.com/...That doesn't look like a current Optima Elite barrel in it...look closely...Look at the lug...an Elite has a hole where the pin goes thru it...

This one  looks like a Handi barrel with an open curve.where the pin lays across it...If this can done on this type of lug there with that type of machiunery...It sure as hell can be done by NEF if they had the equipment...This is a no brainer...

A craftsman is only as good as his tools...Give that craftsman better tools...he will do a better job and turn out a better product...Will it raise the cost of the Handi's...probably...but...wouldn't it be awesome if these Handi's never had to go back to NEF for barrel fitting...and you could walk into a NEF dealer and get what ever barrel they offered like the Elite's?

Would it be worth it over all...I say it would...I say why put our own craftsmen at a disadvantage when competing against different countries...Give them the best tools to make our rifles here...Put them on even ground...and then stand them side by side...and compare them...

Until Marlin understand this...and get out of the mentality of running a good company in the ground and not investing the profits in the plant...there will more instances of quality control pop up...This is a reality...I'm not burying my head in the sand and hoping they will listen...I'm speaking to their wallets...I don't know if it will do any good or not...If it does...then that is great...if it doesn't...then that is a real shame...

You said
Quote
I have to say I myself do not know what keeps me coming back the this thread, perhaps it is just the desire to stand up for these fine guns against the recent attacks in favor of the CVA's

...Who's attacking who here Andy...Who started this thread...and WHY? Those of us that have the Elite's didn't...I know full well why you do Andy...You think every thing is fine as long as no one has anything bad to say about them...then you want to get your feathers ruffled when someone like myself starts telling people as I have been...

To BAD ole bean...I would rather be 100% honest what they can expect  and let them know in the process they have the best forum they can come to get the information to fix the majority of issues they have with these rifles fixed by all the fine folks here and also a company that has one of the best customer service departments in the nation for any rifle they will buy ...

Which is exactly what I have and will continue to do...We got a-lot of good folks willing to help anyone...myself included...These rifles do have issues...This is the truth...Some of these rifles are more problematic than other...This is the truth...Some calibers are more prone to have problems than other calibers....This is the truth... I think I am being pretty honest and open about it...Why is it you have an issue with it?

You said...
Quote
Lets discuss H&R's and NEF's on this site and lets do it with an open and objective mind, not with blanket statements like 50% of all guns produced are produced with problems

  You say you want to do this with an open mind correct?...The only way to do this is to tell both sides...not just the good but the bad as well...and if this entails discussing other rifles and what they have to offer then this is how it is going to be......This is the only way an honest evaluation can be made........

I never said all 50% of all NEF's produced have problems...You have taken what I said...and how I said it completely out of context....This is what you are reading while your angry.....

YOU ARE Totally WRONG... I said you have a 50-50% chance of getting a bad one when ever you open the box...Just like you can if you bought a Holland & Holland...AyA...Remington...Winchester...Weatherby...Savage....and yes...CVA...

But since the Elites are relatively new...and not many people own them yet...folks want to know how they shape up when compared to a Handi...vs Encore...Or any other single shot or how Handi's shape up against them...and even how they shape up against a bolt action..

.http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,114275.0.html...Most of us don't have an issue with it discussing other rifles here as long as if it somehow pertains to Handi's

Here's how I see it...You don't want any discussion on any other type rifle here...You don't want any one to be told the whole story...the good...and the bad......Seems to me YOUR the one with the problem Andy...and your trying to make it look like anyone who has bought an Elite and likes the way it handles and looks are causing the problems...Were not...

Dale...I'm not bashing either rifle...I am trying to clear up a mis perception here that will cause problems down the road...This is one I am not going to leave un-challenged...Folks have a right to hear the truth...

Some folks just don't like it...If you don't want the truth...don't ask for it...It's only natural folks will defend a threat to the NEF's here...even a imaginary one such as this is...Andy is a good guy...and has his heart in the right place...so I know his intentions are admirable by this...I just hope he understands mine is too...

[Norseman112]

Mac,
I have been out of the loop for a while and perhaps this was covered, but remember that time that lady that was associated with H&R & NEF ask us what we would like to see done with the rifles? I think her name was Jennifer? I believe that was her name not sure.  Did she ever give you a response or did H&R do so?

Also, we are all friends here and sometimes its not easy to talk about both sides of the issue. Everyone has a right to there opinion even if it doesn't coincide with our own we should still be respectful and not take offense.  Like I said before I do shoot different rifles and like my handi rifles as well, However I  don't like to see companies go down like winchester  or any really for that matter. I question if NEF/ HR has listened to us.........   Lets everyone keep cool, sometimes you have to let things run off from you like a water off a duck.

John         

[quickdtoo]

John, her name was Diana Lynch, user name was DIANAL, she got shot down by the old boys club of Marlin, then she had some health issues and stepped out of the picture. 

Tim

[Fred M]

O-yaaa I remember "Oh Diana" by Paul Anker.

[Norseman112]

Thats right...thank you Tim

John

[Mac11700]

Fred:

I'm sorry you get bored with more than simple structured sentences...but your removing some of the emphasis I have put into it,changes my meaning on some of it...I'll try to remember to structure my sentences so you don't loose interest...and so you can understand what I am saying.

When you see this in a forum sentence ...... this means either a pause.....or the emphasis is changing. It's a carry over to the old teletype operator days.

Apparently some feel there has been name calling...I assume folks are referring to this statement of mine....

Andy...you sure as heck don't have a problem going to any of the other forums and voicing your opinion there do you...Then don't you dare be a hypocrite with me on this for telling anyone the truth on my own forum.

Telling someone " Don't you dare ".... isn't the same as saying..."You Hypocrite".It is the same as saying to someone.."Don't be foolish"...Which is not the same as saying..." Your a fool"...Just as saying to someone..." Don't be stupid"...isn't saying to them..." Your Stupid". It just means that the person you are saying to...has either started to become hypocritical,foolish,or stupid...or...has started saying something in a manner to reflect what the meaning of the words are...and allowing them the opportunity to change what they are saying....or in this case...what they are writing.To take it any other way...is to take what was said out of context.

I'll try to be brief then I am finished...I am not mad at anyone here...I am not bashing anyone or any rifle here.I have told only the truth.If anyone cares to...Take the time to read everything I said and you will see exactly how I feel about everyone here...and at the NEF plant.

 Lastly.....to calculate anything other than a 50-50 chance on getting a bad/good rifle when you open the box of a new Handi...You first must know the total number of each built...The good ones...and the bad ones...No one here...or at NEF can give you that figure...only the total number built.I am sorry if folks didn't understand my meaning...or don't know how to figure odds...If folks actually read what I wrote...they would see what I said...look at the 4th paragraph in reply #52.

Take care All

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

You Know what I am a very passive person. I do my self say things at times that I regret. This is just the nature of me. This is one of those times. I once had a boss 20 years ago he was my supperintendent. ( can't spell right now it must be the rum and coke ) but he called all of us into his office for our weekly meeting. I was assistint sup. on E bldg. at the time. This was a 160 million dollar project and I had about 800 people under me at the time. To make a long story short we are in this meeting talking about the project and how we could cut costs because he was worried we were running very close to the max at this stage of the project. Well I got out of my seat and stoped these balls that run on perprtial motion. If you do not know what that means I will explain. He had these steel  balls that were hanging from a wood rack on his desk. there must have been  at least 8 or 10 of them hanging beside each other. Once you pull one and let it go it produces a chain reaction that never ends unless stoped. At least that is what I was told later after the meeting. Butch was upset at the time and asked why I did it and I said in front of everyone that it was bothering me and I could not think right with those things banging back and forth. Well at the end of the meeting every one was dismissed but me. He asked me to stay behind. He told me then that Dale I don't like you. You remind to much of me when I was your age. Your mouth is your worst enemy and the only reason I still had a job now was because I was getting things done and I could not be replaced on short notice. Needless to say I lost my job about a month and a half later. I to this day wish I never played with his balls. I would be making a cool $4 or $500,000.00  a year by now with bonus if I would have thought before I acted. I would have had a much differnt life now. So in closing I would like to say please don't be like me and say things that you will regret down the line. I am still learning today and i don't think I will ever stop learning.

[mt3030]

Interesting thread. In July of 04 I had come to the conclusdion that some caliber Handi's were not worth my time needed to tinker out their many problems. And 50% POSs was very close to what I had seen. (And when I expressed my feelings on this board, it was not gracefully accepted.)

At that time I had close to 20 complete Handis, and now have pared down to 5, and my 25-06 is my only rimless caliber. (Have been going to Brownings levers and Tikka bolts for most serious hunting and AR platforms for giggles.)

At that time the saying was that "The Handi was the tinkers dream, but the Hunters nightmare." I still find that very true. To each his own.

But, like Mac, I think it's silly to stick our heads in the sand and deny that these rifles do not have serious problems. I feel NEF must overcome these serious problems before Handis can be considered serious rifles.
 
I have not even held a CVA Optima, but I guess I had better go look at them.

[Brett]

Mac:

I guess I understand what you are saying in your post, but I am not really too comfortable with a 50-50 chance.  I know you can get a lemon in any brand, but Fred said he was 3 lemons for 3.  Hopefully, his experience was unusual and the chances of getting a good shooter are much significantly higher than 50-50.

Specifically, the rifle I was looking at was an Ultra Hunter in .25-06 with the cinammon laminated stock and 25-06 barrel.  Aesthetically, it looks very nice for an inexpensiver rifle.  Now the .25-06 is close to a magnum case capacity for .25 and it is a pretty high intensity cartridge in factory loadings.  Any of you fellows got one of these and can say they have a good shooter with over a thousand rounds through it and no problems?  I like the .25-06 and currently have two of them (not H&R though) and owned others in the past.  That long barrel on the Hunter really looks good to me.

Are there any gunsmiths that cater to tweaking the handi's if there are problems?  Is the factory the only refuge if there are problems?

EJ

One thing to keep in mind is that some of the guys, and Fred may fall into this category, want nothing less than bench rest accuracy from a low budget rifle intended for hunting accuracy.  Then cry fowl when they have spent a bunch of time and money and still may or may not attained the accuracy they desire.  My .280 Handi shoots 1-1/4" groups with factory ammo.  If I can't take a deer with that I don't belong in the woods.

Do H&R's have their share of lemons?  You bet, but probably not any more than other low end hunting rifles.  Spend time on other forums and you will find even Sako, Weatherby, TC and Browning ship out a few lemons from time to time and they are in a whole other price bracket. 

Does H&R need to address some QC issues?  Yes, I believe that they do.  Their guns are very economical and pretty popular, I believe that their desire to keep up with demand is costing them in the QC dept.  I hope that Marlin will invest some money into their redheaded stepchild and get them some newer equipment and some more good machinist and technicians.

In the mean time it's a free country, buy whatever you can afford and enjoy it. 

     

[Fred M]

Brett
Expecting one inch from a deer rifle and a 1/2" from a varmint rifle, is not anywhere near BR accuracy. With todays technology this is just the bare minimum from what I can tell. If you think a 2" rifle is more than adequate that is fine with me.

After spending $550 on two Handi barrels I got one 1/2" hunting rifle and one 3/8 Varmint rifle. This accuracy is not anywhere close to winning a BR match.
But it makes me very happy when I can shoot a deer in the ear at 300 yards.

There is no reason why H&R can't produce better barrels, even a cheap rifle deserves  a good barrel.

[McLernon]

Moderator----- a person that moderates right???

Mc

[Mac11700]

Moderator----- a person that moderates right???

Mc

Moderator 
   


Main Entry: mod·er·a·tor 
Pronunciation: \ˈmä-də-ˌrā-tər\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1560
1: one who arbitrates : mediator
2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a: the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b: the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c: the chairman of a discussion group
3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing neutrons in a nuclear reactor