Author Topic: bullet for 45 LC (Read 3694 times)

webrehm · « **on:** January 12, 2007, 11:39:06 AM »

In reading the previous posts it seems like a 280 grain is about the best all around load for accuracy to 200 yards and for 900-1400 fps. Thus mild to fairly heavy recoil. Is this a LFN or a WFN?

For maximum stopping power, which exact bullet should I use and what is the velocity range that I can drive it at for good accuracy to 75 yards.

I have a bisley blackhawk.

Since I am not into casting my own at this time, who should I buy these bullets from?

tks so much for your help,

Dennis

Veral · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2007, 07:30:21 PM »

The WFN is what I'm recommending as a top hunting round for US hunters taking game to at least elk. It kills very quick and clean with only 1200 fps start speed, at ranges out to 150 - 200 yards, but kills fastest and at the longest ranges if started at 1450 fps, which will be pretty well full power from a Blackhawk, S&W etc.

Montana Bullet works sells them, with LBT lubricant, and will size to fit your gun, and they have both PB and GC bullets available, as well as a broad spectrum of other LBT bullets.

Contact them at

www.MontanaBulletWorks.com

webrehm · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2007, 10:53:27 AM »

tks Veral,

what one bullet is the best for 900-1400 fps, with best accuracy. At this point I want just one bullet that I can load light or heavy as my need varies.

Dennis

paul105 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:14:57 AM »

Veral,

Did you mean WFN or LFN? Mt Bullet Works only catalogs the 280 gr LFN in their .45 cal bullet section.

Thanks,

Paul

Veral · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2007, 07:08:01 PM »

I meant WFN, as I wasn't aware that Mt bullet works didn't have them.
Don't hesitate to use an LFN in whtever weight you like. They need a bit more speed to get the same kill power, but accuracy is superior in all but the lightest weights for each caliber. i.e. 250 gr 45's the WFN will outshoot the LFN if the gun has any cylinder missalignment problemss. If alignment is good, you probably couldn't tell an accuracy difference.

I just sent Dave 14 new molds, which I believe he received on Friday, so his selection will be the best ever for them

TommyD · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2007, 03:33:17 AM »

Hi Veral,

I have been shooting your 260 WFNs and am quite pleased with the accuracy at 50 yards or so with the bullet moving along at 1230 fps.

I am now looking to try some longer range shooting. From your posts in another thread, you recommend the 320 LFN as one of your most accurate 45 bullets. To test them out (and help select which mould I will eventually buy) I have just ordered some 320 LFN GC bullets sized to .454 from Montana Bullet Works.

What velocity range do you recommend to give optimum long range accuracy with this bullet?

Tom

fowler · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2007, 08:34:16 AM »

Now I don't know about Veral's answer but I have been casting and shooting this bullet in one of Veral's molds for 3 years and have had great accuracy from 850fps to 1300fps. I honestly have not run slower or faster than that as with my Rugers 1300 is as fast as they will go without blowing up and at 850 to 900 these are a very pleasant load that is possibly even more accurate than my standard hunting load at 1300 (of course it could be that being a pleasant load to shoot they are easier to shoot well). But 2400 and H110 for stiff loads and W231 and Unique for mild loads have all done very well for me. So I guess in my never humble opinion they will shoot well at just about any velocity so how much kick do you want to deal with?

TommyD · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2007, 03:41:40 PM »

Hi fowler,

I have usually loaded my 300 grain bullets (haven't tried the 320 yet) with a moderate load of H110. I use John Taffin's published load of 21.2 grains of H110 and it gives me 1100+ fps from my sixgun and 1400+ from my levergun. I have gotten good 50 yard accuracy with this load and a variety of commercial cast bullets. For me, "good" accuracy means that I can consistently shoot 5 shot groups that stay within the black of a standard 50 foot pistol target at a 50 YARD distance with my Ruger SRH with a 2x scope.

I recently built a house out in the country and will be setting up my own shooting range and will be able to shoot at 100 or perhaps 200 yards in the future. In the past, I was mostly limited to 50 yards on the pistol by the way my gun club was set up.

I am intrigued by the possibility of quite accurate "low power" loads with this bullet in the 850 to 900 fps range. How much W231 do load with for this?

Tom

fowler · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2007, 02:30:14 PM »

I run 8.5gr of W231 with a 260 gr Keith for my standard load in my Smith Mountain gun. It gets me 925fps or so out of my 4" barrel and is very accurate. I bet the same load with a 325gr bullet would get 900fps but I am only guessing. I know Linebaugh likes 13gr of HS6 for a 1000-1100fps load with a 310gr Keith and I think I will try it for a mid range 300gr load out of my Bisley Vaquero. Hope thins helps, what I wouldn't give for a private shooting range at the house.....

Also H110 and W296 are not very good powders for mid range loads and do better at near max loads, lighter loads get a lot of velocity deviation and if too light can get down right dangerous. I know going below 20 grain is a big no no, but I bet the 21 gr load of your gets a lot of deviation in velocity. 2400, Blue Dot, Unique or HS6 should be better mid range powders and save the H110 for your full power loads. W231 has one fairly serious problem (but I still shoot the hell out of the stuff) is that it is very temperature sensitive. A tempurature change between 10 degrees and 90 degrees can see a fps change of 150fps! OK for plinking loads but not what you want for a hunting powder. I still stick with it for my Mountain Gun but it only goes fishing with me and stays at home during serious hunting seasons.

Veral · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:29:54 AM »

I didn't realize it till right now, but I failed to state that I was recommending the 280 WFN for 44 caliber. 300 grain is it's twin in 45 caliber, though for lower recoil, weights down to 250 gr are very accurate in both the 44 and 45.

I knew of one customer who had excellent long range results with a 400 gr LFN out of a FA Casull at speeds down to 800 fps and ranges out to 600 yards. This illustrates the importance of precision cylinder to barrel alignment, which is at it's best in FA revolvers because they are line bored. The other mass produced, and more affordable revolvers are not line bored, and are subject to misaligned cylinder throats. Sometimes in only one chamber, or up to all chambers. These throw a curve in any recommendation that I make, as I have to plan for the worst case guns. Thus I recommend lighter bullets for light loads. Yet, if your gun is well aligned, very heavy bullets will shoot like a lazer beam at long range with light loads.

Perhaps I should have clarified this in the beginning. If one is purchasing bullets to try out for performance, getting a hundred of several weights isn't a major cost factor. However, if purchasing an LBT mold, and a too heavy bullet is ordered, the cash outlay is prohibitive, and this is where I MUST season my recommendations heavily.

I have another factor which influences my opinions strongly, but may be meaningless to many customers. - I am a hunter, and have never been to a gun range in my 66 years. For all but a few of those years I could step out the back door and shoot any size gun I desired without causing neighbor problems. I set up a target to set the sights, normally, but not always, while probably a majority of my customers do most of their shooting at paper.

Through the years of my kind of shooting, I've found that plinking at all sorts of unknown ranges is the most practical teacher with a handgun, making it not only possible but quite certain that game down to cottontail rabbits are in extreme danger at ranges to 150 and 200 yards, and coyotes to 300 yards will normally have serious problems if I can get decent light on my revolver sights. But I'll always sneak up close as possible, if possible, prefering to take a 20 yard shot if I can. One can only learn to hit at all ranges by practice at all ranges, estimating the drop by 'feel'.

If this type of shooting appeals to you, you'll probably find, as I have that the bullet needs to be mosing at 1100 - 1200 fps, or faster, to make the mental range plotting easy. And once you have a precision load that is easy for your to work with, with enough power to be effective at long range, stick with it, and don't move the sights when playing with experimental loads. Let them hit where they will and just measure group sizes till your are content that this will be your new load, then set the sight for that load.

TommyD · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2007, 02:40:21 PM »

"Yet, if your gun is well aligned, very heavy bullets will shoot like a lazer beam at long range with light loads"

I think that the thrust of my original question got side tracked when I diverged into to "light load" question.

I am primarily shooting a Freedom Arms 83 .454 revolver, but I am using the .45 Colt cartridge because I like to shoot a lot, and don't want to develop premature arthritis in the small bones of my wrist. :-) 1150 fps and a 320 grain bullet from a revolver is just fine for me. I have no need or desire to punish myself with 1400 fps loads. I don't live in grizzly country, and it should be adequate for anything else in the lower 48.

Secondarily, I want to shoot the same ammo in my Puma M92 lever gun. That same load will push 1400 fps, but the rifle absorbs it readily.

I have ordered some 320 grain LFN GC bullets sized to .454 from Montana Bullet Works to try before I buy my next mould.

Perhaps I have been a bit obtuse, but the question I want to ask is:

Is there a "sweet spot" in velocity to optimize long range accuracy for this bullet? Some velocity range to get me in the ball park for fine tuning the loads for my FA 83?

Or is there enough variability between individual guns that makes this question impossible to answer?

Then, of course, there is the whole can of worms we can open in using the same load in the levergun. :-)

Tom

HHI 812 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:27:57 PM »

Veral,
Since your talking .45 cal, how would you compare a 340 WLN GC @ 900fps, compared to a 300 LFN GC @ 1000fps? Any difference in hitting power? Both bullets shoot great in my gun. Not looking to shoot real long range, since my gun has a short 3 3/4" barrel, plus we got big bears of the mean kind up here, and don't want an uncontrollable, painful load. Would rather hit accurately with a milder load. But I know I can still hit a deer or caribou out to 100 yards with no problem with either bullet.

david.bergen · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:43:30 AM »

I want to do the same things with my FA 454.
Veral is at this moment making me a 320 LFN mould.
I also have a 300 TC mould and a 340 WFN mould.
The WFN is giving me very good accuracy and no leading in the bore.(I shoot 50 shots between cleaning)
The reason I have Veral build me a LFN is that with reduced velocity the bullet holes aren't perfectely round (vel 960ft)
A bullet that long at that low velocity is bordering the stability in the barrel twist from the FA
Veral suggested the LFN for the long range shooting I do and it should be stable even with low velocity. My Goal is a one hole load at 1100-1200 ft.
I'll post some results when I start shooting them.
ps: A very good powder you should try is the Vith N 110 powder. It fills the case and you can download it to confortable levels.
Good shooting David

Veral · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:04:40 PM »

Thank you David. I cut your mold this evening so you should be able to crank out some answers as soon as the PO delivers it to Belgium!

HHI 812 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2007, 07:14:28 PM »

David,
Although my gun is a Ruger, it also has a FA 454 barrel like your FA 454. A buddy put my gun together from parts. I haven't really tested it to 100 yards yet, but its pretty decent out to 50 yards. I might have to see if it really really stable out to 100 yards, at a low of 900fps? Hope it does, because I don't want to really push it harder.

david.bergen · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2007, 07:03:54 AM »

HHI,
I think the most important is the twist off the barrel.
A FA gun has a 1-24 twist if your barrel is the same or maybe faster then there will be no problems.
Further a good designed bullet will enter the barrel more centered , contributing to accuracy and stabilisation, but you already found the best designed bullets.If you can handle 900ft it's only a small step to go to 1100 ft.(it's a good idea to stay under the speed off sound. That way the bullet doesn't enter the transonic zone. Not the most bulletstability friendly place.
It's arround 1500 ft that things start to get nasty (recoil,muzzle blast etc)
Best David

david.bergen · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2007, 07:06:06 AM »

Veral,
Looking forwards to do some casting and testing LFN bullets.
I hope the postal office does an as good job as you do !
Thanks David

HHI 812 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2007, 08:53:48 AM »

David,
Don't want to push my little alloy bisley. It is still a 45 Colt 6 shot. That is why I want to stick to a more controllable load. That is why I'm tossed between the 340@900fps and a 300 LFN@1000fps? Which would you pick? I know small for the big bears up here, but better than nothing.
Thanks,
Dennis

david.bergen · « **Reply #18 on:** January 30, 2007, 10:00:19 AM »

Dennis,
You could always split the difference and go with the 320 LFN.
That's what I did and Veral suggested it.
You sure can shoot it at 1000ft with the Bisley
If you give me a week or two and I'll post my findings.
Good shooting,
David

HHI 812 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 30, 2007, 08:09:50 PM »

David,
I would love to get another mold in 320, but finances prevents it. That is why I have to make do with either the 340 or 300 grainers, get advise from you folks on which would be a better choice? Probably would prefer shots to be 50-75 yards, but just in case I run into big bears of the worst kind? Is weight preferred or velocity, based on my 340 WFN@900fps or 300LFN@1000fps? Will look forward to your results David!
Thanks,
Dennis

Veral · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2007, 04:50:19 PM »

I really don't think any bear could tell the difference which load you hit him with.
The LFN at 1000 fps delivers a DV of 83
The WFN at 900 fps delivers a DV of 81.45
If you feel comfortable pushing the WFN to 1000 fps, and I definately would, DV goes up to 90.5 and things will suddenly get pretty serious for Mr. Bear. Even so, you are decently armed with either of the loads you now have.

Perhaps you have handled a tiny Charter Arms 44? About identical in size to a S&W Chiefs Special, but thinner metal. I carried one for quite a spell with my 280 gr WFN loaded to 1100 fps. It kicked enough to draw blood after a few shots, even with the sharp edges rounded off a bit, but it wasn't close to coming apart at the seams. - What I'm saying here is, load the Ruger up a bit if in big bear country. You'll not be under any threat of hurting the gun, but will be far safer with a load that produces a DV of 100+

Calculate DV by multiplying the meplat diameter in thousandths by velocity and dividing by 4. Pour in powder till velocity says you are getting a good DV. -- About Ruger Bisley toughness. I know two men of very high credentials who, to find the strength of this gun, loaded all the 296 they could compress behind my 325 WFN and still let the bullet swing past the barrel. Not being stupid, the gun was strapped to an old tire and triggered with a string from behind a tree. Speed. 1900 fps. No bulging or damage at all after a half dozen shots, when measured by one of the nations top pistol smiths!

1200 to 1400 fps is so far below the above load that there is no comparison, but thats enough speed to really stomp a big bear down quick. If you don't want to shoot it a lot with heavy recoil. Load a few rounds hot and ink the bullets with a red felt pen. Drop these in when in big bear country. Carry and play with your pleasant loads when not in danger. The sight setting won't change enough to matter at defense ranges.

HHI 812 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:21:24 PM »

Thanks Veral. I have shot some warmer loads with the 340 when we were comparing the recoil of my little alloy bisley, and a buddy's Ruger birds head grip Sheriffs model. Veral, not sure if you remember that big meplat drawing I sent you many years ago? Still have your note that came with my mold saying you saw some flaws in my design, but you know I liked to tinker, so made the mold for me anyway. Being that I didn't have the funds to get a .500 Linebaugh, but I still wanted the big meplat, so tried it out wtih this .45 bullet design. Bunch of game have fallen to the the mold, by various folks, and bunch of friends still pack pack it in their 45 Colts and 454's up here in Alaska. Remember this?

Waiting on a Encore barrel in 460 S&W, and it should be a thumper! Not sure how it will be at long range, but a well known gun person in the big bore handgun world, tried some samples just for fun, and after told me, "them darn bullets surprisingly were accurate out to 175 yards, farther than anyone should be shooting at live game with iron sights!" Another buddy shot 3" 5 shot group at 100 yards with his 2X scope FA. Not under MOA, but I'm sure would do some damage on a moose @ 100 yards. Thanks again! Dennis

Veral · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2007, 01:39:53 PM »

Yes, I definately remember making it Dennis, and made myself a very similar 38 mold, which worked beautifully. I don't believe I still have the pattern, but can make another if anyone is interested in the concept. However, one MUST try to make complete sense of a thing like this. -- The reason for a larger meplat is to increase DV (My Displacement Velocity concept for measureing kill power) but a 45 WFN irunning at full throttle is already over the maximum for fastest kill speed. Further more, increasing nose width to the maximum that will fly straight will only increase DV by maybe 10, from about 130-140, depending on which revolver/bullet weight we are talking about. Fastest kill speed comes with 125 to 130 max. Do we want to add DV and diminish results because we have been brainwashed to believe a huge wound kills fastest?? Do we need to compromise accuracy, and a wider nose than the WFN positively will in many revolvers, and have a bullet which willl not shoot accurately with pleasant to shoot low velocity loads?

So I'm happy to help people experiment, and happy when their experiment works to their satisfaction, but I have 27 years of experiance with bullet design, and my customers can be assured that I'll always give my opinion. If the customer finds his experiment satisfactory, as you did Dennis, great, but it won't change my solid and proven recommendations, and when I make a recommendation, I stand behind it. I won't if it isn't my recommendation.

Keep in mind that Freedom Arms guns are line bored so send their bullets out in very good balance, whereas many other brands will be missaligned at cylinder throat/barrel, and won't handle bullets with such poor ballistic form out to longer ranges. Also, the reason for such a bullet is to obtain maximum thump on game, which dictates maximum loads, which help stabilize it. If you want to shoot light loads with the same bullet, select a WFN in one of the LBT middle weights.

HHI 812 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2007, 06:45:30 PM »

Still not sure on figuring out DV, but with this new 460 S&W, any chance you could make a mold to take advantage of the high velocity? I am shooting it out of an Encore barrel, so no cylinder gap. Would a 200 LFN GC be too light for the caliber? Or a lightweight Spitzer? Anything gained with a LCMN nose? How would it shoot long range? Just wondering since the Hornady ammo is a 200 grain bullet. Another fella with a similar Encore barrel in 460 S&W is getting 2700+fps with the factory Hornady 200 grain jacketed, and shooting 1MOA. I'm sure you have made rifle bullets that work with the high velocities. Not looking for a really heavy bullet. My encore has a muzzle brake, so the higher the velocity, the more effective the muzzle brake, and flatter trajectory. So if I'm going very high velocity, for a flatter trajectory, and don't want to over do the DV, should I go with a smaller meplat? Look forward to your advise. Thanks,Dennis

Veral · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2007, 05:36:34 PM »

My SP with a nose flat calculated to kill well at the velocities you expect to get would be your best choice. It doesn't need have a crimp groove, and definately shouldn't in the single shot. as maximum bearing strength is needed with a short light bullet.
I'd reccomend at least 250 gr, as lead is no way as tough as jacket material, and you have to get a good grip on the rifling to make them fly straight. A 250 gr will come out the end quite a bit faster than a 200 gr jacketed, if LBT lube is used, due to lower friction.
The LFN will have far too much meplat for fastest kills, when running at 480 Swift speeds. Probably something around .25 would be best, but give me a clue on what you get for speed with a couple other cast before ordering the mold, and we'll calculate it out.