keith style SWC vs WFN?

[ccoker]

it seems the WFN would be more effective for hunting, but, what do I know?

I guess I just don't see how the Keith style would really do mu more than a plain old SWC
of course, he killed more big game than I ever will.. so..

thoughts?

[dave375hh]

The WFN will give you a wider wound pattern because the flat nose is what makes cast SWCs work as well as they do on game. Wider is better in this instance. It may decrease penitration somewhat but not to a measureable amount. Both styles have plenty of penitration and that is their strong point as opposed to JSP or JHP.

[Mikey]

The Keith style bulles all had sharp edges on their driving bands which basically caused the bullet to cut a 'square' hole going through the target (critter) allowing for greater and more rapid blood loss.  Unfortunately, if not cast to a hard alloy those bullets had a tendency to lead the barrel.  The wide flatnose design has a whoppin' big metplat that cuts a bigger hole as it enters - the metplat on these bullets is a bit larger than on the SWC, which seems to have the same effect on game. 

Both are excellent bullet designs.  The choice is often based on use - I use a swc in a revolver or and either a wfn or lfn (whichever will function) in a leveraction.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Lloyd Smale]

my preference in cast bullets runs kieth/lfn/wfn in that order. Ive personaly shot game with all three and have never seen any animal killed with one that wouldnt be with the other. I prefer keiths and lfns because they fly better at long range and are usually easier to get to shoot accuractely even at short range. Ive looked at all my cast bullet records and have come up with a few gereralizatiosn. REMEMBER these are my guns and its what worked good in mine and might now work in yours but ive got a pretty good selection of handguns in quite a few calibers and with a few exceptions this is what ive come up with. Kieths work. They usually shoot well and will about always fly well way out there. If you change the kieth design its pot luck. Some of the swc molds I have have been dismal failures. What works in a swc is a longer nose with a smaller metplat. I especially found this out when trying to work up loads for my .41 mag and special customs that have short for cailber cylinders. None of the short squaty swcs impressed me. Seaco is a mold manufacture that i love and hate. There molds are excellent in quality but they use alot of the short squatty swc styles and ive just not had luck with them. Two exceptions to my statement are the rcbs 300swc .45 and the 270ssa rcbs both have done well by me, especially the 300. Sitting here typing this im trying to come up with a reason i prefer keiths to lfns and its tough. I guess mostly because im a little old school and just like them. They look like a bullet should. Lfns are probably the best bet overall though. Ive yet to find one that didnt fly well and that couldnt be made to shoot accurately.  But havent fooled much with light for caliber lfns like say a 240 grain .44. I would have to guess that a bullet like that would be to much of a compromise. Either the metplat would have to be made to small to be effective or the nose to short. Alot is said about the advantage of a wfn in the field with its wider metplat and at short ranges it probably will give a slightly bigger wound channel but i dont think theres an animal thats been killed by one of them that wouldnt have died by being shot in the same place by one of the others. Im not a big believer in wound channel comparison for killing power when it comes to handguns. Handguns kill by penetrating into an animal and putting a hole though the vitals and causeing the animal to blead out. I think that a hole in the heart means a dead animal and dont believe that one that is put there by a bullet that is .1 of an inch bigger makes all that much differnce. It may mean the differnce in whether the animal takes one leap or two before it piles up but it will die. Now this probably flys in the face of my prefernce for big bores but if were hunting deer it doesnt take alot of bullet to do it. What you gain with bigger bores and bigger bullets is penetration and abilty to break larger bones and get to the vitals and ive also never seen where a larger would channel hurts anything if the bullet does its job and penetrates to where it needs to go. As you can tell from this im not a big fan of wfn bullets. I guess the main reason is i do do alot of long range shooting with all my guns. Not for hunting but for fun and I cant see taking the extra time to work up loads for a gun that i know isnt going to work for this when a kieth or a lfn will shoot long range and still do just as good of a job at anything else. But that is just me and i have no doubt that if all your going to do is shoot game under a 1000 lbs at under 50 yards and your gun will shoot them that a wfn might be the best bullet for you.

[ccoker]

thanks..
I agree that obsessing over bullet design is sort of pointless if you put it in the right spot
I shoot out of my 243 generic Federal 80g SPs, I have never lost a deer with them
my gun shoots them extremely accurate, I take my time and take only shots I am 100% sure I have lined up perfect

I anticipate keeping shots within about 60 yards, maybe out to 75 if I can be accurate enough at that distance, primarily whitetail and the occasional hog...

[crabo]

Who casts a good Kieth bullet for the .44?  I've heard there are people who claim to have a Kieth style when it is really a variation that is not as good.  I would assume that you would not want a bevel base bullet?  Is that correct?

Thanks,

Craig

[Lloyd Smale]

check with the advertisers here and make sure you specificaly state that your looking for a true kieth design. The rcbs 250kt is about the closest followed closely by the lyman 429421. If they cant provide them. Check here [quohttp://www.mtbaldybullets.com/ frank is a good guy and he is a keith nut and takes pride in his selection of real keith designed bullets and the nice thing is that he will cast them out of any alloy you want. He has his opinion on what alloy is correct and you may want to listen to him but he is flexable. te author=crabo link=topic=112983.msg1098352962#msg1098352962 date=1172636908]
Who casts a good Kieth bullet for the .44?  I've heard there are people who claim to have a Kieth style when it is really a variation that is not as good.  I would assume that you would not want a bevel base bullet?  Is that correct?

Thanks,

Craig
[/quote]

[Mikey]

The Keith bullets usually have two grease grooves, a plain base and sharp shouldered driving bands.  Keith's bullets were/are very accurate.  When cast of proper mixture they are hard enough not to lead the barrel.  Commercial ammo makers who first used the Keith bullet cast them of softer alloys that were known for leading barrels.  Bullet makers then modified the Keith design (caling it a Keith style bullet) by slightly rounding the driving band shoulders to help avoid leading.  Both styles work in my 357s and 44s without leading - just have to find a bullet cast hard enough not to shed lead in the barrel.  Mikey.

[Lloyd Smale]

mikey a true keith has only one lube grove and 3 evenly sized driving bands and the lube grove is square. Lyman made the 429421 in two versions. I have both. One has a square lube grove and one a round. If your looking for a real kieth bullet be carefull buying the lyman mold as most of them have the round.

[Mikey]

Lloyd - thanks.  Mikey.