Author Topic: Model 83: 44Mag or 454 Casull? (Read 2586 times)

revo · « **on:** April 10, 2007, 05:51:53 AM »

I've been wanting a Freedom Arms 83 for quite some time. I have the money saved up and ready to purchase, but I'm having a really hard time deciding on caliber.

I want to use it for hunting deer, hogs, and black bear. I'm split between the 454 Casull and the 44 Mag.

I do reload (if that would help you recommend one way or another).

Am I giving anything up by going with the 44 Mag? I am recoil sensitive, which makes me think 44 Mag. But I can also just load down the 454 to levels appropriate for the game I'm pursuing, right?

I don't want to beat myself up with the gun, but I also want the most versatile gun I can get.

Please help...

MS Hitman · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:08:54 AM »

Yes, you may load the .454 Casull to levels approaching that of a .45 Colt and .44 Mag. This can be done with .454 brass, so I would recommend against the .45 Colt cylinder, unless you just wanted to own one. I understand and speak want very well myself.

You won't be giving up "anything" by sticking to a .44 Mag for the game you have stated that you intend to pursue and bring to bag with your revolver. The .454 will give you an advantage of increased bullet weight and diameter over the .44 mag. My only drawback to the .454 is the noise, but as I own two, I seem to have gotten over it.

flabbydan · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:28:02 AM »

Have you considered the 41 Magnum? It should be plenty potent for the game you mention, with less recoil than the 44. Bullet selection is rather limited (compared to the other two calibers), but it's something to think about. Good luck with your decision!!
Dan

revo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:31:33 AM »

I'll only be getting one cylinder.

When loading the 454 down to 44 Mag or 45 Colt levels, do I also end up with 44/45 levels of recoil and noise, or does velocity just drop?

Also, does the 454 perform well at 44 Mag levels, or is it a case of "if you want 44 mag performance, buy a 44 Mag"?

What I'm looking for is 44 Mag performance (recoil level) for my immediate needs, but the option of 454 Casull performance I ever wanted/needed it.

Basically, I can only buy one of these things, so I better make it the right one...

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2007, 10:21:51 AM »

get the 44 and dont look back.

Broom Rider · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2007, 12:05:42 PM »

I had the same dilema and eventually decided to buy the 44. The 44 should be able to take any of the game you mention and if you shoot a lot it will cost a little bit less to reload for.

STJ · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2007, 01:00:54 PM »

The 454 can do anything the 44 can do and more. The only reason I can see getting a 44 is the availability of factory ammo is more plentiful and cheaper.

I load my 454 with bullets ranging from 240gr to 360gr and 1000fps to 1900fps. The 454 loaded to 44mag levels recoil and "sound" just the same as the 44.

If you are a reloader go with the 454...if not 44...

George Denys · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2007, 03:06:45 PM »

Boy am I going to take some heat on this one but........here goes. It is my opinion after taking 20+ Deer with the 44 magnum, 7 or so with a T/C45-70, two with the .475, two with a 454 and a few does with some stout loaded 45 acp.. that the 44 Magnum with a 240 Gn Hornady XTP kills quicker and cleaner than any other handgun round mentioned. My experience is limited to the above but my next handgun will be a 44 Magnum model 83 with a 7 1/2 or longer barrel. I feel the softer bullet in the 44 works better than the harder magnum bullets built to take the greater pressures. Just my 2 cents. The 45-70 with a 400 gn soft point was the clear looser. Poked a hole in both lungs and it ran over 300 yards. The 44 magnum killed deer always run no further than 50 yards tops except when I hit high and get a CNS hit then they behave like any round put there. The only exception to that is the 250 gn Partition. That bullet is not designed for whitetails. It behaves more like a solid. Not much expanding going on out front. George...........from Masonville

swampthing · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2007, 03:19:46 PM »

Ah dilemmas dilemmas,
The .454 is nice, but, for recoil sensitive shooters I consider the .44mag the maximum caliber when shooting factory hunting loads. Handloaded down makes them much more enjoyable. The .41mag from a F/A will be even more enjoyable to shoot and you will not be underpowered. If you consider the .41cal with 250-280 LBT WFNGC @ 1200fps weak, just try to recover a bullet in game. I use 280's @1200fps in my .44mag, have yet to recover a bullet, have yet to have game escape.
I do not hunt with ear protection so the softer muzzle blast is a huge bonus and I can shoot a 100 rounds and not get sore.

Crazy Horse · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2007, 04:00:55 PM »

I would get the 454 and reload to 44 mag levels. Use the Sierra 240gr hp. It is soft and will expand good that the lower velocity. Then you can always load up some hot loads if you wanted to. The bottom line is no matter which caliber you get you are going to love your freedom arms pistol.. I have a 454 and a 475 and if I can ever afford it I will get a 41 next...

IronAir · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:30:05 PM »

Revo, I feel for ya. This is a subject that I have been struggling with for a while also. Most of the good points have already been discussed.

If you are going to buy a new gun, the 454 will cost slightly more. Less than $100, but it adds up.
If you are going to buy a used gun, the 454s seem to be more common and plentiful. Some have been shot very little.
Reloading for the 44 will be cheaper, 454 brass is expensive, bullet selection is about even. Maybe a slight advantage to the 44.
You can reduce the power of the 454 to whatever level you desire. You can only increase the 44 so far. But for your needs, it sounds like the 44 would be plenty.

I have given up trying to decide which one would be more practical, and have decided to just get a second job so I can afford several. I think I will start with a short barreled model 97 in 45 Colt, then maybe a 7 1/2 inch 454 with a scope, then maybe a 9 inch 357 for punching paper, then maybe...

...you get the idea.

Picking the caliber is the best place to start, but then you will have to pick a grade, a barrel length, grips, sights, ports or no ports, trigger job...

...it just never ends. My best advice is start looking for that second job.

Or just flip a coin.

rimfire · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2007, 02:58:41 AM »

I got the 44 first. Loaded with 300 grain bullets it can take handloads at ridiculous levels that bothered my wrists to shoot. Layne Simpson published some 300 grain XTP loads years ago at powder levels of 240 grain loads. The gun can take it...I cannot! I will never need a 454. Cannot say I will never have one, but I would load it WAY down. If I cannot take it with a 300 grain 44 bullet, cast or jacketed, at 1400 fps plus, I probably have no business shooting at it. I know guys with the 454 who use 300 grain cast bullets at 1200 fps to hunt elk, moose, etc. I can do that with a 44 so again...don't need a 454.

So I could load the 454 down to my level or load a 44 beyond my level. I guess...for me...it may be a tossup. I am not much help...huh?!

Barry

Zeus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2007, 03:53:08 AM »

Hitman and I have shot some 255 grain cast bullets out of my 7.5" FA in 454 Casull that go around 1150-1200fps. The blast is WAY less than with full power loadings. Hitman and another buddy of mine are the reason that I ended up with a 454 and it has become my favorite caliber that I own. The versatility of the 454 is awesome. Load down in 454 brass for the heavy 45 colt and hot 44 magnum loads or load it to its potential, its all up to you. with the reduced loads, mine will cut a ragged hole at 50 yards with iron sights. These guns shoot, no one can take that away from them. In fact, with all the different loads that I've tried in this one over the last five years, I have not found one yet that it doesn't shoot well. I will have a 44 and a 41 FA one day but if I were left with only one in the safe, it would definetely be my 454. GS

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2007, 12:35:02 PM »

There's no " right" answer to your question. I own all the FA calibers, and enjoy them all. Your post suggests to me that perhaps you've never owned a .44 Mag. The FA .44 Mag. will easily fill all the needs you describe. From a 7.5" barrel, 24 gr. of WW 296 will run a 240 Sierra @ 1550 fps. A 300 gr. XTP will run 1385-1400 fps. with several loads. Few game animals require more than this. Those that do, aren't on your list, and frankly the cost of hunting them these days is such that the cost of another revolver is almost immaterial.
Opinions vary, but personally, If I need more than a .44 Mag., I prefer to jump up to the .475 Linebaugh. I like my 2 .454's, and it's true that they are versatile enough to be loaded from mild to wild, but proper loading of a .454 should involve an extra crimping step separate from a seating step, and components are a bit more expensive than .44 components. These are small details, easily dealt with, but my recommendation to you, particularly since you express some concern over recoil, is to go for the .44. There's a reason one finds so many FA .454's in the used gun market... they're more than the buyer needed / wanted. The FA .44's are superbly accurate, and I can't imagine that you'll ever be dissatisfied. I would also encourage you to get the 7.5" barrel, or at least no less than a 6".

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #14 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:21:37 AM »

The 300 grain at 1200 fps can be obtained in both but in the larger caliber you get a bigger hole.

Then the larger caliber and also shoot a bigger bullet at a higher speed if you ever desire to do so.

Rod in Pa · « **Reply #15 on:** April 12, 2007, 05:58:05 AM »

Revo, I have a F/A model 83 44 mag, 7 1/2 bbl. field grade with a 3# factory trigger mounted with a Leupold 2 1/2 X 8 scope. I use it for Whitetails in Pa. With a rest it is a 125 yard gun. It is all I need to hunt deer. Rod in Pa.

revo · « **Reply #16 on:** April 12, 2007, 07:10:36 AM »

Thanks to all for your help! Gives me more to think about.

I do own and regularly shoot a S&W 629. I find recoil tolerable. I just don't know if I could handle more than that though...enough to really put in serious practice time, that is.

Plus, not sure if I want to spend $2K just to confirm that I actually DON'T fare well with mega-mega recoil.

I'm leaning twd 44Mag. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again.

EdK · « **Reply #17 on:** April 12, 2007, 07:14:39 AM »

Yes there are a lot of 454s on the used market but just consider it as someone's loss is your gain. It's been established you don't "need" a 454 (or a 475, or a 500...) but if you can get a used 454 for less $$$ than a new 44 why not? I rarely see 44 mags (or 475s) but once I began looking for a good clean 454 I ran into a used/unfired specimen in Premier grade for just $1100. I see my local shop has 2 listed on line right now.

True the brass costs a little more but 454 brass loaded to Ruger-level 45 colt loads is going to last a loooong time - and you can always load it up if you want to. Either use cast or 250 gr XTPs (not mags). As others have pointed out forget about the extra 45 colt cylinder. If you reload there is no need for it.

Happy hunting!

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #18 on:** April 12, 2007, 08:39:57 AM »

Revo,
OH!! Well now!! You already own a 629 ? And you find the recoil tolerable ? That's entirely a different matter ! Hellsbells, ignore my earlier advice, and go for the .454 ! You already know you secretly want to !
In time, you may even gravitate to the .475. Ask Ms. Hitman and his two Hitman buddies.

revo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 12, 2007, 09:15:12 AM »

44 Mag recoil. Tolerable? Yes. Enjoyable? Not really...

Yes, deep down I do want a 454. Seems the thing to do when you buy a Freedom Arms 83. I just have a feeling I'll end up on the used rack too...I wont be able to handle it.

44 Mag is speaking to me. Today, that is...

EdK · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2007, 11:41:14 AM »

Remember: if you loaded a FA 44 mag to the same 57500 CUP levels as quoted for the 454 you might not like that either (not that I advise it and it could prove dangerous with your 629 around the house).

The point is you don't have to. Select the 35000-40000 CUP levels for the 454 and with 240/250gr bullets it won't behave much differently than a 44 mag. Personally I like bullets ranging from around 270-325 gr loaded in the range from 1000-1300fps - they will do anything I ever need.

I've got to believe 95% of the used 454s on the market come from people who don't reload. Edit: I looked at this thread a day later and realized maybe only 5% of shooters reload anyways so maybe it is a lame comment. Still one would think that FAs being enthusiast guns maybe the percentage would be higher. Also agree with dubber123 below and others on your 629 in that the same level 44 mag loads would be noticeably less punishing in the FA. Conversely you could up the power level considerably in a FA and maiintain around the same degree of recoil (subjective, yes).

dubber123 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 12, 2007, 01:58:32 PM »

It's my opinion that you will be able to handle a much more powerful cartridge in the F/A than in your Smith due to the different grip frame. I have 2 Smith .44's, and 300 grainers at 1,200+ are ALMOST less pleasant than my .475, I'm sure mostly due to the F/A grip frame distributing recoil much better than the double action frame on the Smith. I don't think you can compare the recoil in your 629 to a single action.

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2007, 05:10:09 AM »

Quote from: dubber123 on April 12, 2007, 01:58:32 PM

It's my opinion that you will be able to handle a much more powerful cartridge in the F/A than in your Smith due to the different grip frame. I have 2 Smith .44's, and 300 grainers at 1,200+ are ALMOST less pleasant than my .475, I'm sure mostly due to the F/A grip frame distributing recoil much better than the double action frame on the Smith. I don't think you can compare the recoil in your 629 to a single action.

THAT is the opinion of a dedicated SINGLE ACTION shooter. I totally disagree as a dedicated DOUBLE ACTION shooter.

It really tho depends on WHICH type shooter you are. I can handle far greater recoil in a DA than a SA gun. Loads that are mild to me in a DA bring blood in an FA83. You need to know which gun works best for YOU not for someone else before such a decision can be made.

revo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2007, 06:32:28 AM »

Good point Graybeard. I do notice a difference as well between DA and SA.

For me, DA has been more pleasant to shoot than SA. But to be honest, my DA's wear Hogue rubber grips. All my SA's wear wood grips. So I am a bit biased (and a bit inexperienced to boot).

I'm leaning toward a Premier Grade, but was thinking to get a second set of Pachmayrs with it. Not keen on the look of rubber grips, but they do work for me.

With that said, I'm actually thinking to just go with a Field Grade and have money left over for a companion lever gun.

What do y'all think about these lever/revolver pairings:

Freedom Arms 454 Casull & Marlin 45-70 XLR

Freedom Arms 44 Mag & Marlin 444 XLR

EdK · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2007, 07:39:03 AM »

Yes Graybeard does have a point on differences in handling with respect to the DA/SA grip frame styles. Not to be overlooked are the differences between the various brands/models within those two categories. For example, I bought a Ruger Redhawk, got a great action job on it and then proceeded to wring it out. It was accurate and smooth but the grip frame gave my hand an awful pounding. Tried numerous rubber aftermarket grips e.g. Uncle Mikes, Pachmayr, etc. including some Hogue wraparound fingergroove wood grips to no avail and finally sent that gun on down the road. Got a 629 - no problem. I bought a Ruger limited run 5.5" SS Bisley blackhawk largely based upon the reputation of that grip frame in handling recoil (at least I was smart enough not to put any custom work into this gun first) and guess what... grip frame didn't work for me. Got a FA mod 83 - no problem. This has been noticed by more than just me. There is a thread or two to this effect right here in the FA forum. In short, you wouldn't buy gloves before trying them on, try out a heavy recoiling handgun before you buy if it is at all possible.

Lastly, a FA mod 83 in 44 mag weighs 6.5oz more then a S&W mod 29 (both 6"). That will help also.

Zeus · « **Reply #25 on:** April 13, 2007, 08:43:17 AM »

The loads that I mentioned earlier shooting in the 1100-1200 range were being used on the sillouette range. firing one handed, they are a breeze and will just about match alot of 44 mag loads. As far as the pacmayers go, I detest them. They don't fit me and the recoil is much worse to me than with the black micarta. If you order a Premier grade, I definetely suggest paying the extra $35 or so and having the micartas fitted to the gun. I much prefer them to the wood that I used to have. The Pacmeyer don't allow the gun to "roll" as well to me which causes the skin to grab and can be uncomfortable to me. But like Ken said, if you already have a 44, grab the 454 next. You'll end up with both of them one day anyway probably so buy the one that it was originally designed for :>) GS

Spencer · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2007, 07:10:06 AM »

Here is my two cents.

Buy the .454

I reload and have worked up an accurate load that is a .454 downloaded to .44 mag levels. I enjoy shooting these loads through my F.A. more than standard .44 mag loads out of my S&W model 629. I tend to be a bit recoil sensitive because I drink too much coffee, and the F.A. is just easier to shoot.

I have to second what everyone says about finding a used .454 cheaper than a .44

I bought mine for about $1100 used. It came from Cabelas from the gun library so don't forget to check there before you buy as they seem to have FA's used in stock from time to time

good luck with the decision.

mk454 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2007, 10:09:24 AM »

like graybeard i prefer a good double action, until i finally got the hang of the whole single action shooting and now i just love the feel of the FA. that said, i've worked up a bunch of loads from 900 fps to really hot stuff that breaks 1700 fps at 320 grains in the FA. i wouldn't do it in any other gun. as far as the game you're pursuing now, all of the above will handle it. in fact, and this is where i differ with many here is i don't think the bigger guns like the .454 or .475 really ad much to actually killing game, pretty much any game. you can punch a whole through anything's vitals with a .44 with the proper 300+ grain lbt loading in the .44 and as far as anything charging you. and short of a 100lb hog, shock means squat you have to hit the cns so accuracy is key. the main reason to shoot the .454 is "trajectory". the increased velocity allow less hold over and i'm much more accurate past 100 on hogs, deer, and elk. that's why the .475 makes little sense. we could argue .454 vs. .475 all day but there's no argument about trajectory. other than the big smiths which are just too big for me to want to carry, well i still like them, but you get the picture. the .454 has the most bullet variety, the most options and will kill anything. i load mine down and let my 11 year old shoot it if that says anything. i'd go .454 and never ever look back, but i'd never say the .44 would be a bad purchase.

as far as the lever gun combos, i like the .454 and marlin guide guns in 450 or 45/70, OR the .44 and a henry .44 big boy.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #28 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:38:25 AM »

"The 45-70 with a 400 gn soft point was the clear looser. Poked a hole in both lungs and it ran over 300 yards. "

And the bullets producer is?

Sverre A. · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »

I`m agree about Graybeard`s point of view about DA and SA-recoil .

But all of us have a individual "response" about what recoil means to us.

I feel that a TC Contender in 44 Mag and 10" barrel - is much more "macho" in my hands than my FA 454 is (with ordinary loads).

And my Ruger SRH with Hogue Tamer and 300 gr. bullets at 1400 fps is peanuts - compared to the abovementioned guns. For me

Why don`t Hogue make similar grips to the FA? I have sent Hogue a queston about this - but have not get any answer