round ball's bad rep.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I wonder if the bad reputation that roundball's get stems from their versatility and inherent stability.

There's no doubt that guns intended for roundball shooting have slower twists.  That doesn't mean that a fast twist can't stabilize a roundball though.  It just means that it will stabilize at a slower velocity.

Compare the plethora of ML out there with 1:48 twists with the guns that have a 1:60+ twist.  I wonder if you did a survey of ML hunters who have experience with RBs would you find greater hunting performance satisfaction among those who shoot slow twist barrels vs. those who shoot 1:48 pitches?

If I had two guns that shot a .50 roundball with equal accuracy, but one did it with a 70 grain charge while the other did it with a 100 grain charge, I'd hunt with the weapon that uses 100 grains of powder to accomplish the same accuracy.

Perhaps those folks who have had bad experiences with RB's weren't using enough powder.

[shotgun31]

The PRB doesn't have a bad rep in my book.  More powder won't improve accuracy in a 1X48 or faster twist because there is a point where the bullet's RPM causes the ball to become unstable due to centrifical force.  The structural integrity of the soft lead ball is exceeded, and it's becoming like clay--flattening out.

I did a bunch of research on this subject, as I was trying to develop a good, effective black powder deer rifle. 

My first experience was with a 1X33 twist .58 cal military replica--poor PRB accuracy with 70 grains black powder.   So poor I never even tried any more.  I later found that 45-50 gr was what the target shooters were shooting in the military .58.

Second attempt was with a .50 cal TC Hawken;  good accuracy with 65 gr but that was max before the groups began to widen up.  Couldn't even keep it on the paper with 75 + grains.

Third, was the TC MaxiBall 370 gr conical.  To get a flat trajectory I worked up to 110 grains black powder.  That load sailed through a deer like I shot the bullet through a card board box.  The 110 grain load was far to much for that light rifle, and I broke the stock at the patent breach plug.  Kicked!

I read Greener's book "The Gun" and began to pick up an appreciation for the round ball.  At the height of the black powder era, 1880's, the British hunters were using the 8 gauge double as a dangerous game gun.  They started with a round ball, then went to the conical bullets--then were going back to the round ball because the conical "shook" the gun, damaged the stocks, etc without much benefit.  The RB penetrated just as well as the conical.   

So, I concluded that the round ball shooter was what I wanted for a deer rifle.

My present rifle is a 1X66 twist .53 that I shoot with 110 grains of black powder, .525 ball and .015 patch.  Accurate, and to 100 shoots flat as a bowstring.  I've shot a number of deer with that rifle, all good one shot kills, all full body penetration and a good exit hole that bleeds.   I shot a wounded doe in the side of the head to stop it for another hunter--full penetration of the skull.

I've found that the solution to accuracy in with the PRB is to use the optimum load for the barrel twist, with a fast twist the optim load is lower and if exceeded the structural limit of the ball will be exceeded. 

For big game hunting, the slow twist barrel with a hefty powder charge and a PRB are very effective with good penetration.  I admit I haven't had a lot of experience with the conicals and I'm a 100 yds or less shooter with black powder.

Just my experiences and thoughts.
Shotgunman       

[captchee]

shotgun has made a good post and covered things real well . IMO most of the problem with RB stems from folks who  don’t take the time to set down and work a proper load .
 If by chance the do find a good load  they then try and stretch the range .
I have taken a lot of deer and elk with round balls range from 50 cal to 62 . I cant recall ever not achieving complete pass through .
 Now I do use a conical  in 435 grain for bull elk . However that’s not because of  the round ball performance but because I want a big heavy chunk of lead for them boys 

[flintlock]

When I started hunting with a .45 caliber flintlock in 1977, folks would say.."Will that thing kill a deer?"
I'd usually tell them..."Daniel Boone died in his sleep, almost 85 years old, its all he ever used."
He only used round balls as well....Folks think of all kinds of excuses when they make a bad shot...
Most don't realize that the deer population on the East Coast was pretty well shot out with single shot muzzleloaders using round balls...

Use the proper bore, and a good charge of powder, you will have no worries...

[roundball]

A patched round ball is an extremely accurate projectile...it's all I shoot/hunt with in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62 calibers.
Goex black powder and a snug fitting patch/ball combo is all that's necessary for top notch accuracy.

I use the same max powder charge hunting load in both 1:66" and 1:48" barrels for .45/.50/.54cals...small ragged hole at 25yds, larger ragged hole/cloverleafs at 50yds, and 1.75' - 2.75" groups at 100yds with the following hunting load:

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke prelubed wad
.018" TC prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .440/.490/.530

If anyone is not able to keep round balls on a sheet of notebook paper that's certainly not because of the round ball...for example invisible bore butter build up in a bore is nortorious for groups opening up with powder increases...but it's not being caused by the round ball, and round balls don't act like soft clay in a bore.  Round balls have been getting it done efficiently, effectively, and with precise accuracy for quite a few hundred years...hope this helps.

[mg66]

I have no doubts now to the accuracy of RB in a traditional ML. Posted on this board is a pic of the accuracy I am getting from my .54 GPR at 50 yards. Cant wait to try it out on further distances.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,110066.0.html

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I have no doubt that a PRB can cut cloverleafs at 100 yards even.  But precision accuracy is not the be-all end-all of hunting weapons.

I think the bad rep that PRB's get stem not from hunters missing their animals, but from animals not piling up shortly after being shot with otherwise good hits.

I've heard stories of deer hit with PRB's running for well past 100 yards and that's with a good hit.

However, I suspect that this happens because people work up "target" load, then use that "target" load for hunting.  Sam Fadala warns against this.  That is why in his Black Powder Loading Manual he lists "target" loads as well as "optimum" loads.  Sam draws a distinction between target and optimum hunting loads. 

The target load would have the accuracy needed to win a competition but not much more power than is needed to punch a hole in paper. 

Sam's Optimum loads have the accuracy to hit the boiler room, but also carry enough oomph to bust through bone and destroy as much vital tissue as possible. 

If you use the Optimum loads in competition you'll get your fanny kicked.  If you use the target loads for hunting you better be a good tracker.

[AndyHass]

Will more modern projectiles do things the RB won't?  Well, yes, there is a reason the RB was replaced rather quickly once alternatives were available.  But that has about ZERO to do with the RB's killing ability out to around 100 yds.  A RB fired out of a properly tuned rifle will drop a deer just fine as long as the hunter does his job placing the shot and stays within the limitations of the RB's aerodynamics.

Most people today are more familiar with the terminal performance of expanding modern projectiles, not RBs.  So that is their comparison point.  My experience has been that as long as there is a sufficient caliber hole through the deer,  expansion and "impressive" appearance of the wound mean squat....though many people will swear that it does.

[Stan in SC]

Round ball DOESN'T have a bad rep.RB is the most accurate load there is and properly loaded and placed will accomplish anything a sabot or conical will do.When you start talking about MAX loads versus target loads you are exposing your knowledge of reloading but you are missing the primary idea which is to achieve the proper velocity to hit your target with ENOUGH force to allow the lead projectile to penetrate and expand.MAX LOAD does not do this.PROPER LOAD does.Too fast a load and the expansion does not occur properly.
So many people in reloading and in muzzle loader shooting immediately think what's the fastest highest velocity load I can develop.Not proper thinking.Best get your facts straight and thinking in the proper mode to achieve the best results.

Stan

[Snowshoe]

I think the bad rep that PRB's get stem not from hunters missing their animals, but from animals not piling up shortly after being shot with otherwise good hits

I think the same thing can be said about why people go to the big magnums for deer hunting. They blame the old .30-30 for not doing it's job, when it is the hunter that isn't doing his by fallowing up on a shot.
  Round balls do thier job very well, if the hunter does his.

[simonkenton]

"the deer population on the East Coast was pretty well shot out with single shot muzzleloaders using round balls..."

That's right. And the elk herds of Kentucky were wiped out by 1815, and they weren't shooting the 30-06.
As for the idea that deer don't pile up when hit by a round ball, that is just not true.
Twenty five years ago I was a very successful deer hunter in central Georgia. I used a 30-06. I had killed about 30 deer. I would shoot a deer in the lungs, he would run 100 yards. If it was after dark I tracked him with a flashlight. I got good at blood trailing.
I decided to give blackpowder a try. This was 15 years before there was a special blackpowder season. I got a TC Hawken, mail order from Dixie. I decided to use the patched round ball, since that was what Davy Crockett used.
I used 80 grains of black powder.
I figured, if the old time weapon was no good, I would just go back to my scoped 30-06.
The first deer I shot was a big buck at 60 yards. He got 30 yards, and he piled up. Lung shot.
By and by I had killed 7 deer and 6 wild hogs with the patched round ball. Never had one go more than 50 yards. All shots were pass through, which in a way disappointed me because I never recovered a slug. I got MUCH BETTER performance, on the lung shot, with the prb than I did with the 30-06.
Anybody who has bad things to say about the prb and deer hunting just doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Slamfire]

Not to mention the buffler in the canebrakes. 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Simon Kenton mentions something about deer shot with a .30-06 that I've often wondered about.

If everyone using a high-powered centerfire only took one shot per deer, would the roundball have such a bad reputation?

When a person hits a deer with a .30-06 in the lungs and the deer starts running, the person might keep shooting until the deer is anchored.  So the deer only went 30 yards after first being hit.  Is that because the first hit was so lethal?  Or because the second hit took out a leg or two?