Some of our roots

[S.B.]

A while back, there was a thread about carrying a handgun for bear, here is something I found that's not exactly on this subject but, still, it's where we came from:  http://www.gunsandammomag.com/classics/polar_1007/ .  Hope you enjoy it as much as I did, both years ago and recently?

[Redhawk1]

Good read. 

[MePlat]

What does this have to do with carrying a handgun for bear?

1.  We all know that a 44 Mag will kill a bear.
2.  People like Larry Kelly and JD Jone has used the 44 Mag on bear,  Cape Buffalo,  Asian Water Buffalo and a slew of other game.
3.  Most ask about a Handgun for bear protection in case they are bebopping around in the woods and happen to run upon   
Smokey the Bear and he suddenly wants to eat them for lunch instead of watching for arsonist.
4.  This is where the power of a handgun becomes secondary and the shooter becomes primary.
5.  Pounding dirt with a 500 S&W is not as effective as a 44 Mag well placed by a shooter that realizes he has no alternative but to place the shot or else be ravaged by said bear and then carried off and stuffed under some brush to age so the bear can have some delectable leftovers later.

If most will even frequent a shooting range and watch people shoot a double action or single action handgun fast while not under the pressure of being eaten but under the pressure of a stopwatch you will see that ( I will say 95 percent) most can't do squat.

The question most should ask is not what handgun to carry but what must I do to prepare facing a charging bear intent on venting his temper on me while chewing on my body once I have the handgun to carry.
Running looking back over your shoulder while trying to empy your S&W 500 or your Linebaugh 500 probably won't get it.

[Redhawk1]

MePlat, I don't understand your post?? 

S.B. said "here is something I found that's not exactly on this subject but"

So why the 500 Mag was brought up I don't know. But I can shot my 4 inch 500 Mag at 25 yards just as fast as I can a 44 Mag and be every bit as accurate with the 500 Mag as I am with the 44 Mag.  No matter what you are shooting a well placed shot is what you want.

You last statement, someone could use any round not just the 500 Mag or 500 Linebaugh.  Using a 44 Mag is not going to make you a better person if you don't make the shot either.

Your post was just confusing to me. I did not know if your were just bashing the 500 Mag or just off on a tangent??  Maybe you could explain it to us. 

[MePlat]

Redhawk 1
"So why the 500 Mag was brought up I don't know. But I can shot my 4 inch 500 Mag at 25 yards just as fast as I can a 44 Mag and be every bit as accurate with the 500 Mag as I am with the 44 Mag.  No matter what you are shooting a well placed shot is what you want"

Evidentally you do not read most of the posts concerning bear handguns.  Most are asked what handgun for bear protection not for hunting bear.  I did not say it concerned the 500 S&W but many post bring up that caliber.

"But I can shot my 4 inch 500 Mag at 25 yards just as fast as I can a 44 Mag and be every bit as accurate with the 500 Mag as I am with the 44"

"That is well and good but are you represent the majority of shooters?  If you say yes I seriously question you watching others shoot the big guns.

"You last statement, someone could use any round not just the 500 Mag or 500 Linebaugh.  Using a 44 Mag is not going to make you a better person if you don't make the shot either."

I did not say carry any round I was assuming that if someone got as far a asking a question concerning bear protection they would assume not to us a 22 rimfire .
Plus you agreed with what I was saying to begin with if you can't do it with a 44 why would anyone expect to do it with a 500 S&W or a 500 linebaugh?
Go back to my statement about most shooters.  Most can't his squat shooting under pressure with a DA.  Why because most don't practice.  Just because you do doesn't mean others do.  Measuring their corn in you half bushel doesn't cut it sometimes.

"Your post was just confusing to me. I did not know if your were just bashing the 500 Mag or just off on a tangent??  Maybe you could explain it to us."

Bashing a 500?   If you will look at my post on 44 and 500 bullets you will see I cast for my own.  I can do well with the 500 too but many fall into the old saying: "Don't let your mouth write a check your behind can't cash"  when it come to handguns and what they can shoot.

In these situations the shooter becomes the BIGGEST equation.

[Redhawk1]

OK, I got you now, I was just wondering about your reference to the 500 Mag.

Yes I have watch some people shot big bore handguns. I have noticed that a lot of them can't shoot worth a darn. Even with a 357 Mag and I know it would only be worse with a 44 Mag or 500 Mag. I agree with you that they need to be at the range and practice, heck I put a lot of time in at the range.

The big question here is, just how would any of us act in a real bear charge. 95% of us would only hope we could handle it the proper way, but our fight or flight reflex is going to dictate that in the split second. No matter what gun we are carrying.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. 

[S.B.]

Sorry I thought others would enjoy the read.
Meplat, get on the Hunting Alaska and see what caliber is most often carried by people who live with bears. Where do you live?
Actually, I think I first read this in the mid sixtiies? I meant this as a piece of our hunting history.

[Redhawk1]

S.B., I did enjoy the read. Thanks for posting it. 

[MePlat]

S.B.

"Sorry I thought others would enjoy the read."

It was a good read although I have know about it for many, many, years.  


"Meplat, get on the Hunting Alaska and see what caliber is most often carried by people who live with bears. Where do you live?"

I don't care what anyone carries.  That doesn't mean a thing.  There are mediocre golf players that use Ping clubs,  I could carry a song book around with me but you wouldn't want to hear me sing.  I could wear a toupee but i would still be bald.  i know aman that owned many, many, handguns and bought components like bullets by the thousands like in more than 1000 at atime and owned many, many pounds of power and thousands of primers but couldn't hit squat shooting fast or  slow.

Where i live has nothing to do with it as you are more likely to be injured by a two legged predator than a bear.  Yes there are bears where i live and are getting more prolific every year.  Also posionous snakes too.

My wife could carry one of my 500's but I bet you would want pay to see her shoot it too since she has only shot a 22 RF.  The look on her face would be worth a 20 dollar ticket purchase to watch.
I generally carry at least 3 knives too.  I am not a knife fighter either.

The shooter,  the shooter, the shooter can we say the shooter?

[Lloyd Smale]

I think what Metplat is saying is that it doesnt do any good to carry the biggest stick in the woods if you cant swing it well enough to do dammage. I agree with him. Half people being confronted by a bear are going to react by soiling there pants and thats about it. Another 30 percent are going to turn around and run. Maybe 10 percent are going to have the moxy to pull there gun and get a shot off and it doesnt do squat to even do it if you cant hit what your shooting at. Ive seen way to many people with big guns and in this case ill call anything  bigger then a .44 mag a big gun (though very few really shoot a .44 good enough) that couldnt hit a target consistantly at 25 yards let along a charging bear. They buy these guns and a couple boxes of shells and think its some security blanket in the brush. Lets be honest not everyone that goes and buys a 454 or 500 is ever going to master it. Some people just dont like recoil. Then they justify buying a DA by saying they need a fast second shot and then dont put the time in to learn to shoot it double action. Which is an altogher differnt facet of handgun shooting that takes many thousand of rounds to master. Id about bet that 95 percent of the people walking around with 454s and 500s thinking there going to protect them against something dangerous would be much better served with a .44 using a midrange 1000 fps load or even a 357. Why? Because theyd actually shoot them. If you really want to use a handgun to protect yourself against something like a bear youd better be prepared to put the time in to master it. After about a year of shooting a couple hundred rounds a week out of it and id dont mean off a bench or shooting single action at beer cans. I mean in the field with the gun in the holster. Half the batte with a handgun is presentation. Drawing, clearing and shooting. All in one fluid motion so many times that it just comes natural. A bear isnt going to wait around for you to fumble around unsnapping your retention strap and drawing a 9 in barreled gun out of a cross draw holster. If you have that much time you probably would be able to back away from the trouble. Once you have that gun out and presented and have the need to place a bullet in a target the size of a basketball (at the very largest, probably half that size) moving at 25mph youd better not have to think about trigger control or sight picture because nobody could under those circumstances. It is going to come down to a instictive shot and the only way you can aquire the skill to do that is by repetition and that means lots of repetition. If you flinch or jerk the trigger shooting at targets your sure not going to be smooth under pressure. The big bores are fun to shoot but require alot of dedication to master. Hell ive been shooting them for years and dont even pretend to have mastered them yet and thats after 10s of thousands of rounds. They sell some awsome weapons over the counter these days! and thats great but they dont sell the skill to use them. That is something you have to be willing to put the time into to aquire!!! Ive seen maybe a half a dozen people in my life that can REALLY shoot a big bore handgun well enough to handle one like that. Now after all that rambling you might catch me in the brush with a 500 or 475. Why? because id be hunting with it and theres a big differnce there. Id have a guide backing me up with a rifle so for the most part im covered. I think these bear protection posts are a farce because theres probably not a sole on this forum that needs to worry about it and to spend big money to buy a big macho gun to prepare yourself for it is a farse. Your better off buying some powder and bullets for your .44 and learning to shoot. If i had to be in the brush in big bear country what would i carry. Probably a 4 inch smith da in 45 colt or 44 mag with a 300 grain hardcast at about 1000 fps. Plenty enough to punch through heavy bone and still controlable. Try drawing and hitting a target quickly with one hand with full power .500s or .454s and see even without pressure how long it takes you to recover and take a second quick shot and see if you really hit what your were aim at. Theres alot of macho crap on these forums and im guilty of it as much as the next guy. But your only fooling yourself if you think you can go and buy a 500 smith bear protection package with those pretty colared grips and be ready for smokey the bear. Hes just going to have lunch on smith and wesson! Moral of the story is quit dreaming and start shooting! Now go ahead and flame the hell out of me!

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess im not done rambling yet Ive got one more example for you. Do a search on the forum for the bear dustin linebaugh shot with his 475. Now first understand that he did carry that gun for protection but to take a controled shot at an animal hunting. Now LOOK at his gun. Its wore ragged! He took a 2000 dollar gun and used it like a tool (are your hearing me camel ) he put many many thousands of rounds through it and put the time into it to really master it. I chuckle when i see guys at the range that claim to be able to shoot a big bore and look at there spit and polished gun with no bluing wear. Stainless guns that look like new. Hell they dont even have a gouge in the grips. For the most part 95 percent of the big bore guns sold are nothing but ego boosters! Go to a range and youll see it yourself. Beware of the man thats standing there with his wore out beat up super blackhawk. Hes the one off to the side chuckling under his breath. Hes the one i want standing next to me when the (censored word) hits the fan. His hunt sparked alot of controversy. Why because not two people in 10000 want to put the time into it that he did. Its easier to just stand back and say its a stunt then it is to put in the work he did to get where hes at today. Granted he is in a better circumstance then most of us to do it but anyone that really wants to can. You say you cant afford the gun or the ammo. BS sell your golf clubs sell your motocyle sell guns you dont need. Buy a gun a press and a casting setup a couple cases of primers and a couple kegs of powder and go to work. Ill guarantee that in a year of so youll want to pat him on the back instead of bashing his hunting ethics. There now im really done rambling.

[Mikey]

I liked the article.  Mikey. 

[Lloyd Smale]

and s.b. thanks for posting it. I enjoyed it too.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, tell us how your really feel. LOL

I agree with what you said 100%. I have seen a lot of them guys at the range, I have also seen a lot of them and they no longer shoot there 500 Mag, because they sold it.  I have guys that see me on the street and say, your the guy at the range with the 500 Mag aren't you. A lot of people see that I put a lot of time in with my 500 Mag. I do it because I love to shoot it, I don't plan on an encounter with a big bear anytime soon, but never the less I practice with it all the time. Thank God I reload for my 500 Mag, or I would be broke.   

I know one guy that just bought a 460 Mag and he goes to my Taxidermist and good friend and was telling him he was going to show me how to shoot these big guns, my friend laughed and told him he better go to the range and shot the hell out of he NEW 460 Mag before he would want to challenge me with one of them big guns as you put it.

So, yes I have seen them guys you are talking about, hell I know a few of them.  I have always liked big bore handguns, when the 500 Mag came out I wanted one so bad I could taste it, I was not trying for an ego trip, I just like the power it has. And yes it takes a lot of range time to get real proficient with the 500 Mag, to master it takes even more time, me I don't think I have Mastered the 500 Mag but I know I am more proficient with it than any of the guys I saw shoot one.   

[S.B.]

Actually, I think most of this replies here are preacing to the choir? After four by passes and a chunk of my caroted artery rreplaced plus what is evidently sciatica nerve trouble in my back at the present, I think most of my handgun hunting is coming to a close. I didn't start out hunting big game as many here have done but, I started with a K22 for rabbits and squirrels, before it was popular to hunt with any handgun. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of .44s and a couple of .41 mags. and like to hunt deer with them but, I know my limitations, beleive me.
I remember my first encounter with handgun hunting while walking out of the woods with my single shot Noble .22 rifle, North of Streator IL., an older farmer in bib overalls ( I think this was one of the many Caulkins' men who farmed the ground) was coming into the woods I was leaving, and stopped to talk. He asked me if I'd seen any squirrels and where, in these woods and what they were cutting? I saw no evidence of a gun on this man, and asked if he planned on hunting? He withdrew a Ruger Bearcat from the back pocket of his bibs (he was a huge guy and the Ruger was so small) and said yes, I was star struck and asked him if he ever killed game with this? His answer was "occasionally if the right shot presents itself". And my handgun hunting adventures began! I just had to try this. That desire has been the strongest moving force in my life, ever since. I was about 12 or 13  at this time in life and 59 now so, I've payed my dues and done my deeds, and I can't sing either. Have a nice day.

[Skunk]

First, TY SB for posting the article. Was very enjoyable.

Second, you tell it like it is Lloyd Smale. I sure enjoy your posts. Always learn a bunch of good stuff from you. We are never too old to learn. You are the kind of guy that I would buy a beer - iffin I went to the saloons that is. Just keep those good posts a coming our way.

Skunk

[Lloyd Smale]

Skunk im the kind of guy that would drink that beer!!! Just remember that were all here to learn!

First, TY SB for posting the article. Was very enjoyable.

Second, you tell it like it is Lloyd Smale. I sure enjoy your posts. Always learn a bunch of good stuff from you. We are never too old to learn. You are the kind of guy that I would buy a beer - iffin I went to the saloons that is. Just keep those good posts a coming our way.

Skunk

[Larry Gibson]

I liked the article as read here again and I liked it years ago when I first read it . Thanks for the post. I agree with LLoyd but we should remember there is a difference between going out in pursuit of bears with a revolver vs protecting ourselves from a bear with one. In the first case we are provoking a situation and in the second preventing one.

There are numerous (actually a lot if you bother to research) stories of attacking bears being killed by handguns and equivelent powered rifles. In most cases where the shooter shot soon enough and accurately enough the bear, while not "stopped", was turned. There are also many cases where the shooter did not shoot soon enough and he or his partner were mauled to a degree. But remeber in those instances they are still alive because they had the gun. There are also cases where someone (the guy photoing a grizz momma nad her cubs in Montana is the classic) had a gun and did not use it in time. My point is that any reasonable gun carried in bear country is better than no gun. However, I do heartily agree that it should be of such cartridge that the shooter is capable with it. It should not be a rifle, shotgun or handgun that one is not practiced with regardless of the "advise" given regarding the "stopping" power of such cartridge. I have been chased by one bear (don't believe the old wives tale that they cannot run fast down hill) and had confrontations with 2 others (1 black sow with cubs and 1 grizz boar). I did not have to shoot any of them although I did shoot just by the head of the sow that chased me with a M1917 S&W loaded with 235 gr SWCs over 7.5 Unique. I had a 30-06 when I confronted the grizz and a .45 ACP with the other black. BTW; I have hunted blacks with handguns and have killed them with a .357, a .45 ACP and a .44 Magnum.

While I do not adhere to the thought that a handgun is the best for defense against bears I o adhere to rule #1; Have a gun.

Larry Gibson