45 Colt in the lever action

[unspellable]

The venerable 44-40 cartridge first appeared in a lever action.  Shortly there after Colt chambered it in the SAA, some say even before they had the 45 Colt.  The 44-40 became popular as a combo round.  But I don't recall hearing of the 45 Colt as a combo round until modern times.  When was it first chambered in a lever action and why not back in the 19th Century?

[Dan Chamberlain]

Spell;

It has been said that the .45 Colt case had a rim that was too small to reliably extract when the chamber was fouled with black powder.  The extractor would pull off the rim.  This may or may not be true, but it seems to make sense when you look at the S&W revolvers in .45 Colt and how easy it is for one of them to slip the extraction star and fall back into the chamber.  The rim is super small compared to the size of the cartridge.

Dan C

[unspellable]

Yes, that might have some bearing on it.  There is a largely forgotten cartridge known as the 1909 Colt 45 which was essentially a 45 Colt with a wider rim for use in the swing out cylinder Colt New Service Model of 1909.

A while back Straline made a run of wide rimmed 45 Colt brass for DA's.  Wish they would do it again.

[jd45]

Wasn't the small-rim problem cured at some point with a larger diameter? Plus you've got the under-cut on the solid-head cases, as opposed to a straight wall from mouth down to rim on the black-powder "balloon-head" cases. Does the under-cut help with extraction? Just curious, JD45

[unspellable]

The 45 S&W or 45 Schofield had a wider rim.  The rub was that you could only put three of them in a Colt SAA.  The government then developed a cartridge with the narrow rim of the 45 Colt and the short case length of the 45 S&W, known not too surprisingly as the 45 Government and later on the civilian market as the 45 Short Colt.  (Hence the practice of referring to the 45 Colt as the 45 "Long" Colt, it had nothing to do with the much later 45 ACP.)

The Colt New Service was adopted as a stop gap between the 38 revolver and the 1911 auto in 1909.  The cartridge for the New Serice Model 1909 was the 1909 Colt 45 which had a wide rim and a case just slightly longer than the 45 Colt.  This cartridge holds the distinction of being the only US military primary issue cartridge that nobody ever heard of.  You commonly hear 1909s referred to as being chambered for the 45 Colt which isn't strictly true.  They were meant to take the 45 Colt as a backup cartridge when the 1909 cartrdige was not availabel, but the laoding is different and the 1909's sights are regulated for the 1909 cartridge.

When the 45 ACP was in the developement stage the intitial specifications alled for it to duplicate the ballistics of the 45 Government.

I think that early on the 45 Colt's rim was enlarged from microscopic to miniscule.

Hand ejector or swing out cylinder and top break revolvers wan ta wider rim to prevent extractraction problems.  I wish Starline would make another run of wide rimmed 45 Colt brass.

[jd45]

And I quote, "I think early on the rim was enlarged from microscopic to miniscule". Unspellable, that's GOTTA be a significant improvement! (grin). BTW, how about that undercut on the newer cases, you know, just above the rim? Does it help with extraction?.........what is the purpose of it? And it's on ALL revolver cartridge cases, not just .45 Colt. I'm wondering, JD45

[unspellable]

A groove in front of the rim might aid some extractors such as in a rifle but would be of no value for a conventional ejector such as most DA revolvers have.

In general, we call it an extractor if it pulls from behind the rim and an ejector if it pushes from in front of the rim.  Some double rifles and some revolvers have trick ejectors for rimless cases, but a simple ejector with a rimmed case has always been the better choice.  Rimless ejectors are more complicated and only used where there is some other over riding reason to use the rimless case.

A simple ejector pushes straight back and so cannot engage the groove.  Most extractors are spring loaded and will engage the groove if the hook is long enough.  That groove might count for something in today's lever actions chambered for the 45 Colt, you'd have to look to see.

[jd45]

Thanx Unspe...........( sorry, I can't spell it!) JD45

[mousegun]

Read somewhere long ago.. can't remember where..

The Colt 45 ("long colt" as opposed to the Schofield/Colt army contract cartridge) was a patented cartridge.  Oliver Winchester wanted to chamber the '73 in 45 LC.  Colt management said no.  Oliver W. threatened to challenge the Colt patent.  Colt, which had planned to offer a levergun for 45LC itself, but didn't want to defend against Winchester's suit, offered to stay out of the levergun business if Oliver W. stayed out of the 45 LC business.  They agreed.

..as I said, it was long ago so the story may not be entirely congruent with the facts.  The patent is real and the agreement is a part of company folklore if not company records.

[Blackhawk44]

.45 Colt cases with a turned extractor grove did not begin to become common until the mid-1960's.  With the earlier balloon head cases and miniscule rim, any attempt to use Colt cases with a rifle extractor would truly be the height of folly.  I've pulled the rim off of too many just in the loading press (which was very common only a few years ago).

[unspellable]

There are many variations on the Apocryphal "agreement" story.  One version has it that Winchester agreed to stick to long guns while S&W agreed to stick to handguns.

It is a fact that Winchester had a couple of nice revolver designs in the back room.  They were designed by Borchardt who went on to greater fame by designing the Borchardt pistol for DWM, which Georg Luger in trun modifed to become the Luger.  The Borchardt cartridge became the basis for a whole family of cartridges.

The Borchardt/Winchester revolvers are on display at the museum in Cody, Wyoming.  (Or at least they were the last time I looked.)

[Bitterroot Bob]

Howdy,
I'll second the previous posts. Seems like the .45 didn't appear in rifle form until the 1980's when Marlin chambered the 1894 in that caliber. The .44WCF appeared in the Winchester 1873 rifle in 1873, the same year as the Colt SAA. It was offered by Colt in their Frontier Six-shooter in 1878. It is my understanding that the military had claims on the first five years production of the SAA, so it was available in .45 only during those years.
I'll take a stainless Rossi carbine loaded with heavy loads, please.

Bitterroot

[jd45]

Thanx for the reply, Blackhawk44, about the turned extractor groove..........BTW, your suggestion about using Alliant Power Pistol in my .45 Colt-chambered Uberti 1873 Sporting rifle prooved sound...........great accuracy-grouping. 9.2grs under a 250gr Meister RNFP. That's my deer-hunting load, Thanx again, JD45

[Warhawk]

There are many variations on the Apocryphal "agreement" story.  One version has it that Winchester agreed to stick to long guns while S&W agreed to stick to handguns.

It is a fact that Winchester had a couple of nice revolver designs in the back room.  They were designed by Borchardt who went on to greater fame by designing the Borchardt pistol for DWM, which Georg Luger in trun modifed to become the Luger.  The Borchardt cartridge became the basis for a whole family of cartridges.

The Borchardt/Winchester revolvers are on display at the museum in Cody, Wyoming.  (Or at least they were the last time I looked.)

The Browning museum in the old train station in Ogden Utah is an interesting place.  Mr. Browning sold a lot of designs to Winchester, who never built them. Winchester would buy these so they wouldn't fall into competitors hands.  The Browning museum has the tool room prototypes.

[Lloyd Smale]

the cody museum is an amazing place. Its worth a trip out west just to see it for any gun nut!

There are many variations on the Apocryphal "agreement" story.  One version has it that Winchester agreed to stick to long guns while S&W agreed to stick to handguns.

It is a fact that Winchester had a couple of nice revolver designs in the back room.  They were designed by Borchardt who went on to greater fame by designing the Borchardt pistol for DWM, which Georg Luger in trun modifed to become the Luger.  The Borchardt cartridge became the basis for a whole family of cartridges.

The Borchardt/Winchester revolvers are on display at the museum in Cody, Wyoming.  (Or at least they were the last time I looked.)

[Warhawk]

Yessir it certainly is. It's been several years since I was there, it's about time for another visit.

[navylawdog]

I would love to go see the Cody museum. I am from Kansas so I love everything that has anything to do with the old west. That is in Cody, Wyoming isn't it?

[RugerNo3]

The rim on the 45 Long Colt was for headspacing only. They were ejected from the front after opening the loading gate.

[w30wcf]

I have 70 old U.M.C. and REM-UMC headstamped .45 Colt balloon head cases that I use for shooting the full 40 gr. b.p. charges under 250 gr. bullets in my 1894 Marlin Cowboy rifle. These are also known as solid head button pocket cases.

These vintage cases have a rim diameter of .510" average.  The diameter forward of the rim is .480" which leaves a vary narrow rim of .015".

Interestingly, some R-P .45 Colt cases also measure .510" / .480" but with a groove diameter forward the rim of .440".  That definitely allows for more positive extraction from a lever action rifle since the extractor can grab about .035" of rim instead of .015".

That being said, I have never had a balloon head case fail to extract from my Marlin. No doubt though, in the heat of battle with many shots being fired, it would most likely happen.

Regarding the reason that the .45 Colt was not chambered in a lever action rifle in the early days,
I would think that WInchester much preferred to only chamber cartridges of their own design in their '73.  That would change in the coming years beginning with the '86.  By then though, the quest for more powerful carridges was underway.

w30wcf

[Lloyd Smale]

yes it is.

I would love to go see the Cody museum. I am from Kansas so I love everything that has anything to do with the old west. That is in Cody, Wyoming isn't it?

[qajaq59]

If you get anywhere near Cody, go to that museum. It is great and there are other museums in the same building, one of which seems to have every gun ever made. You can spend days in there. And there are some Remington bronzes that your wife will really appreciate as well. Definitely go if you can...
Qajaq

[tnekkc]

My Win 94 Ranger 45 Colt lever action is two years old and extracts just fine.
The loads I am shooting would not cause a sticky case in a revolver.
They come out easily.

[buffalohunter]

I have a Trapper Model 94 in 45 Colt, never had a problem with extraction and it is a very good shooter. I mostly shoot the Horn 250 bullet with 21.0 grs of H4227. I have shot the 300 gr Sierra with good results. I would never sell mine.

Good Shootin

[navylawdog]

I have a winchester model 94AE in .45 colt and it puts the 300 grain sierra bullets in one ragged hole at 50 yards. It has a sticker on the stock that says single action shooter's society with a number on the side. If anyone knows what that is all about please let me know. But anyways like buffalohunter I would never sell mine either. I used to own a trapper in .45 colt and that is what made me decide to buy another .45 colt lever action.

Navylawdog

[S.S.]

Was there not a slide/pump action rifle chambered for the .45 colt ?
Not sure if it was a Lightning or not, but I do seem to remember seeing one.
Think it was made in the late 1800's Not sure what type of extractor/ejector it used though.