375 WCF--- adequate 200yd Elk cartridge?

[Haywire Haywood]

I know... I know... I hate these kind of posts too.   

I have no experience with Elk and sold my 30-06 last year, leaving me with the choice of 45-70, 45-90, and a project gun in 375 WCF that I will have by this fall.  The 45s are iron sight guns, and I'd prefer to use a scope, which the 375 will have.

Ian

[Woodbutcher]

 Dear Haywire:
 I like these posts! Great question! I'll be looking for the members response on this one.
 Would I be correct to think that the 375 WCF is ...sorta...similar to the 38/55?
  I've got the NEF Handy, with scope,in 45/70 and the Target in 38/55, with target sights. The Target version sure holds still better than the Handy, but the ballistics of the 45/70 look better.   O'course, good ol Haywire had to say ELK instead of deer, to make things a little more interesting!
                                                                   Woodbutcher

[Haywire Haywood]

Yep, Winchester took the 38-55 and modernized it.  The brass is a just a touch shorter (2.020 vs 2.085) and thicker to handle the increased pressure.  Looks like the Max PBR for a 10" target with a 235gr sptizer is 246yds with 1628fps and 1383fpe remaining at 200yds.  This is from data taken from a 20" barrel since the cartridge was originally intended for a lever action rifle.  My rifle will be sporting a 24" tube so I hope I will be able to squeeze a couple more hundred fps out of it.  200 more fps at the muzzle would change that to 1799fps and 1689fpe at 200yds.  I think it will make an adequate Elk cartridge if I keep it under 200yds (preferably 150) and hold out for good broadside shots.

For a comparison:
a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet produces 2367fps and 2239fpe at 200yds.
a 270 with a 150gr bullet produces 2429fps and 1965fpe at 200yds

[Smokin Joe]

Hey, Haywire, have you considered the Barnes Original 255? I use the .45 cal Originals and they work as advertised.

[handirifle]

Haywire
You don't state your MV in that data.  I'm pushing mine over published data and am getting 2150fps from a 250gr jacketed, out the 20" muzzle of my 94 BB.

Also, is your project gun a Handi?  If it's a levergun you cannot use the spitzer, unless it's a two shot rifle.

[idahoelk101]

been a little while since I have been here. 100 to 150 sure, but 200 might be pushing it.  My partner took one (spike) year before last with factory winchesters at about 50yards.  Through and through from the side and took the top of the heart off from the front (reverse order of shots chest first).  The trick is to stay at or about 2k worth of energy at impact.

[handirifle]

I've always read that the min for elk was 1500lb energy.  The load I mentioned above puts out 1530 at 200yds and 1747 at 150.  It's actually just under 2000fp/lbs at 100yds.  Just lately have I seen some quoting 2000.  I'd always seen 1500 like I said earlier. 

I'm not an elk expert, by ANY stretch on the imagination, but the remington ballistics for the 30-30 factory 170gr load, that has killed MANY elk, shows it only producing 1827ft/lbs of energy AT THE MUZZLE!  My hunter buddy has killed several with his 30-30.

Of course, MORE is always better, but I'd say the ballistics of my load are adequate at 200 but you have to figure your own numbers and go from there.

[Haywire Haywood]

Sorry, been offline for a few days.  My onboard ethernet adapter took a lightning hit.

Handi... this is a Handi-rifle.  I sent my 24" 223 Ultra barrel off to Wayne York last week for a rebore/rechamber.  I'm going by book max from the Speer manual.  It says that I should be able to get 2067fps at the muzzle with their 235 Spitzer from a 20" barrel.  I'm hoping for 200fps more without going over book max.  It will likely see more cast bullets than jacketed tho, somewhere in that same weight range.

Ian

[idahoelk101]

Handi- while I dont disagree with you that the 30/30 is a fine round and capable of dispatching anything in the hands of an accomplished hunter (I have a 340 savage that I dont feel under guned with) it wouldn't be my preference.  In the area that I hunt short shots are the norm not the exception (under 75 yards) and it is STEEP and DEEP up here so puting them down now is of the utmost importance.  My go to is the 375 H&H and my partners is a 45/70 ( I dont like lever guns).  Can you kill anything with a 22, sure but why risk it. I guess I am saying use enough gun if you can, but either way get real good with the one you have the animal deserves it.  Now the real important question is how do you get that sucker out of the woods.........? (picture taking a horse 3 miles from the nearest road having him die and trying to get him home)

[handirifle]

Idaho
You get no argument from me on that point, I was pointing out that the NUMBERS work in favor of the asked question.

When I went on my ONE elk hunt, I carried a 30-06.  Would have carried heavier if I had one.


Haywire,
Gotchya!  I personally believe the 375 can go a lot harder than is quoted in some places (don't ask how I know this) and you can read Paco Kelly's articles at the Leverguns.com forum (articles section) and see what I'm saying.  LOTS of data there to use.  Good luck on it.

I believe your goal is easily obtainable, as I get 2150 from a 250gr bullet out the 20" tube.

[Coyote Hunter]

Haywood –

Which Speer are you reading?  I believe mine says that the 235g bullets are not suitable for use in tubular magazines.  I know Paco flattened the tips before using them in a tube.

The Hornady 220g works great in my Marlin.  WW brass, Rem 9-1/2 primers, AA1680 and 2300fps with good accuracy.

The .375 is somewhat marginal as a 200-yard elk rifle, though.  My load drops to 1239fpe at that range. Not a problem for broadside shots but not what I would want if the elk turns tail and runs.

[Remfarmer]

I just have to wonder how many elk were taken with an origional 38/55? I took a deer at 165 plus paces with a .50 Hawkin years ago and the old buck just sat down like a dog and rolled over. The 355 grain maxi-ball d both sides of the ribcage and yet didn't exit the opposite hide. Sometimes high velocity works against us and of course sometimes for us. I say Go HUNTING and shoot wisely.

[handirifle]

Sorry, been offline for a few days.  My onboard ethernet adapter took a lightning hit.

Handi... this is a Handi-rifle.  I sent my 24" 223 Ultra barrel off to Wayne York last week for a rebore/rechamber.  I'm going by book max from the Speer manual.  It says that I should be able to get 2067fps at the muzzle with their 235 Spitzer from a 20" barrel.  I'm hoping for 200fps more without going over book max.  It will likely see more cast bullets than jacketed tho, somewhere in that same weight range.

Ian

Haywire,
I'd bet you could go Paco Kelly's route, using 38-55 brass and push that spitzer well past 2300 from your rifle.  I'm getting over 2130 from my 20" barrel for the 250gr bullets, with RL-7.  I have gone over 2200 but it was not as accurate.  This load gives me 3 shot clovers at 50yds.  I'd love to be able to try a load out with the 235gr spitzer you mention.  Just might be too exciting from a levergun. 

I'll try to get a ling to Paco's article on the 375 for you.

[Old Time Hunter]

I've taken Elk at over 225 yards with my .375 '94 BB loaded with 220gr Hornady's in front of 33 grains of H4198. But then again, I 've taken the biggest Bull Elk I ever got with a .44Mag Trapper from 40 yards too.

I think the AA1680 generates better velocity with lower CUP pressure, but I use the H4198 in my .444's, 45-70's, and my .450 M. My best accuracy at 200 yards with my .375WCF is using 32.5 grains of H4198, low pressure and accurate as all get out. Showed better than 1100 ft lbs on the measure plate, more than enough to splay the bullet and bust up bone!

[handirifle]

Haywire
I could not find his old article but I have it on my computer as a Word file.  Will be happy to email it to you if desired.
email me at slewis53@adelphia.net

[crankshaft]

Haywire
I could not find his old article but I have it on my computer as a Word file.  Will be happy to email it to you if desired.
email me at slewis53@adelphia.net

 I have using the max load of 1680 in my marlin and getting 1 inch at 100 and often cutting cloverleafs.  Not chronod, but supposed to push a 220 hornady to 2375 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. 

[AuProspector]

HH

My hunting pardner and I were hunting elk a few years back and we had work our way up to the top of the mountain.  I was using my Winchester BB 375 and a factory load and my pardner was using a Winchester BB .356 Win w/ 250 grain factory bullet.

While taking a break at the top of the mountain, we spot movement coming towards us.  Low and behold, here comes a small herd of about 7 elk.   Six cows in the lead with a nice 5 point bringing up the rear.  We were in one of those bad positions of being in the open (enjoying the sun) and on the sky line.  We dared not move as we would be spotted by the elk.

The lead cows came to within 30 yards of our positions (BTW, we had cow tags) and we shot at the two cows in the middle as they passed by.  We had clear side shots at them and when I fired first, my pardner then shot her cow almost immediately afterwards.  It almost sounded like one shot.  The only thing I can say is the .375 Win wasn't a very good killer.  However, the 356 Win was a devistating round.  We found this out later when I gutted the animals and saw the amount of damage done by both cartridges.

My elk was shot in the heart but she was taking off for the next mountain and eventually died after going a short distance.  The elk shot with the 356 Win only went twenty feet after being hit and it's chest/lung area was destroyed.

My opinion is, the 375 Win will kill an elk, but the bullet doesn't tear up much tissue.  Maybe a better bullet than the factory bullet would help.

After this hunt, I too, used a 356 Win when hunting elk in the dark timber.  IMHO, a much better round. 

I'm sorry to see this great cartridge is passing in popularity.

As a side note, In his book "Red Letter Days" Cpt Townsend Whelen used a 38-55 in 1904 (or his pardner used it) for a 4 to 6 month horse trek though the Canadian wilderness.  They thought that the rifle was more than enough gun.  I truly think it is too but there are just better cartridges that I'd rather use.  Especially with today's hunting pressures.


PS  I believe a 200 yards shot at an elk would be more distance than I would be comfortable in making with this round.

[handirifle]

Auprospector
It's hard to argue with experience, but I have a couple questions.  You say you were using "factory" ammo, which load?  They came in 200gr and 250.  The latter is very hard to find, so I assume it was the 200.  In chrono tests with mine the factory 200's are pretty low in terms of velocity as compared to the loads I use from Hodgdons manual with the same bullet.

No doubt the 356 is a powerful round and should be more so than the 375, but I've been told that the factory 200's are not ideal for elk or moose.  One reason I've made some heavy loads with the 250gr jacketed bullets.  If you can find them, Barnes makes one for the 375, but if you already have a 356, it's kind of a moot point anyway.

FWIW, heart shot animals don't always just lay down and die.  Some run quite far.

Nice data to work with though.

[coyotejoe]

I'd question the use of that 235 grain pointed bullet in a .375 Winchester. No doubt that bullet was designed for the .375 H&H magnum at considerably higher velocity than will be possible from a .375 Winchester and I'd especially doubt it would expand properly at 200 yards.  Forget the numbers on paper, I'd feel much better using the 220 grain Hornady which was designed for the cartridge you are using.
  I have to chuckle at the theory that it takes "X" number of foot pounds energy to make a clean kill on a certain species. That implies that a certain bullet will knock an animal on its' butt at exactly 167 yards but will totally fail at 168 yards. And it implies that all animals of a given species are the same every time. As if a critter on the alert, knowing its' being hunted is the same as one caught snoozing. And it implies that a shot on the edge of the kill zone is the same as one in the heart, as if one could even draw a fine line to say this IS the kill zone. The animal may be facing straight on, straight away, quartering left away, right forward, above the hunter or below--etc. Those numbers are just a lot of foolishness-- if you put the bullet in the right place, assuming it has the penetration to reach the right place with the shot you are presented, you'll have meat, numbers be as they will.
  My best buddy hunts with a T/C Encore in .375 Winchester. He loads the 220 Hornady at a bit over 2300 fps and has taken several elk with it. You'd be hard pressed to convince him it is not a 200 yard elk rifle. Personally, I fell for the Elmer Keith bull and thought the .338 Win Mag was THE elk rifle. Now that I've gotten old and scrawny, I just don't like getting kicked that hard and I now prefer my 6.5X55 or my 30/30 and find they work just  as well.

[AuProspector]

Auprospector
.....You say you were using "factory" ammo, which load?  They came in 200gr and 250.  The latter is very hard to find, so I assume it was the 200. 

Handirifle

When elk hunting, I always go with the heavier bullet weight.  In the case of the 375 Win, the factory load was the 250 grain that I used on the elk.  I was very surprised by the lack of distruction to the vital areas of the elk at such close range and the higher velocity of the bullet (if you could call it that) when the bullet impacted.  At the time, the 250 grainers we plentiful and I didn't use the rifle much afterwards.  I was wondering myself if the jacket on the 250s were of a heavier construction as the bullet went through and through.   Good for penetration but not for spectacular kills.

I still have about 10 of those 250 grain bullets left.... I wished now that I would have purchased more at the time. 

I hope this helps
AuP

[txpete]

HH

My hunting pardner and I were hunting elk a few years back and we had work our way up to the top of the mountain.  I was using my Winchester BB 375 and a factory load and my pardner was using a Winchester BB .356 Win w/ 250 grain factory bullet.

While taking a break at the top of the mountain, we spot movement coming towards us.  Low and behold, here comes a small herd of about 7 elk.   Six cows in the lead with a nice 5 point bringing up the rear.  We were in one of those bad positions of being in the open (enjoying the sun) and on the sky line.  We dared not move as we would be spotted by the elk.

The lead cows came to within 30 yards of our positions (BTW, we had cow tags) and we shot at the two cows in the middle as they passed by.  We had clear side shots at them and when I fired first, my pardner then shot her cow almost immediately afterwards.  It almost sounded like one shot.  The only thing I can say is the .375 Win wasn't a very good killer.  However, the 356 Win was a devistating round.  We found this out later when I gutted the animals and saw the amount of damage done by both cartridges.

My elk was shot in the heart but she was taking off for the next mountain and eventually died after going a short distance.  The elk shot with the 356 Win only went twenty feet after being hit and it's chest/lung area was destroyed.

My opinion is, the 375 Win will kill an elk, but the bullet doesn't tear up much tissue.  Maybe a better bullet than the factory bullet would help.

After this hunt, I too, used a 356 Win when hunting elk in the dark timber.  IMHO, a much better round. 

I'm sorry to see this great cartridge is passing in popularity.

As a side note, In his book "Red Letter Days" Cpt Townsend Whelen used a 38-55 in 1904 (or his pardner used it) for a 4 to 6 month horse trek though the Canadian wilderness.  They thought that the rifle was more than enough gun.  I truly think it is too but there are just better cartridges that I'd rather use.  Especially with today's hunting pressures.


PS  I believe a 200 yards shot at an elk would be more distance than I would be comfortable in making with this round.

at 30 yards you should have taking a neck shot and been done with it.they tend to go striaght down