400 H&H & 465 H&H Magnums

[Rusty]

I have heard these new cartidges are being developed.  Is there any real need for these two new cartidges?  Any input on this is appreciated.

[Lawdog]

Rusty,

Good question.  It will be interesting to see the final results for the safari they just finished up using these two calibers.  MY only question is will they survive if a rifle company doesn't start making rifles in the $2,500+/- price range instead of the pricey Holland & Holland rifles?  Lawdog

[Yukon Jack]

I think both are going to be excellent cartridges.  Basically the 400 H&H is supposed to create the same ballistics at 100 yards as the 375 H&H does at the muzzle.  It pretty much duplicates game getting power of the 416 Rem Mag and the 416 Rigby, so if it is needed or not, hard to say...

I guess Holland and Holland wanted to compete with the others in that niche.  I do believe they will be surperb rounds, but whether or not they are any better or worse than any existing cartridge in the same niche remains to be seen.  I guess the other question would be why not a 400 H&H instead of the Remington or Rigby version?  Same performance, brass can be made cheaply from 375 H&H brass, pressures are low, etc...  The one big drawback of the 400 is the limited bullet selection.  There are some good bullets from Hawk and Woodleigh, and North Fork will be introducing a 360 grain bullet that should work well, but pickings are slim.

The 465 H&H is based on the 460 Wby case, I think.  It is designed to generate 375 H&H performance at the muzzle out to 200 yards.  Will it outperform the 458 Lott, 450 Nitro, 470 Nitro, etc... well, gee whiz, do really need anything to outperform those?  They are already well respected for taking the very largest and most dangerous game on the planet.

I just think H&H is trying to enter into those classes with a bolt action cartridge.  They have producing flanged versions of these (or at least something very similar for years) for double rifles.

[Paul H]

From the perspective of the average hunter, I can see no need for these rounds, but I can see why H&H developed them.  H&H has a reputation for producing fine guns, some consider them the finest.  There are many well healed folks that think nothing of dropping $25-50,000 on a rifle from H&H.  These aren't folks that care about purchasing ammunition at the corner ammo store, and don't handload.  They will pay whatever the bill is on what is considered the finest products on the market, even if ammo is $5-10 ea.

With that in mind, and with a move in the last 10 odd years to rounds somewhat more powerful then the 375 H&H for use against cape buffalo and elephant, H&H was in a dilemma.  The only European ammo offerings that would be close to what is desired is the 404 Jeffrey, 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby.  I have no doubt the thought of using a competitors chambering in one of their rifles would be unaceptable, hence to development of two new house rounds.  

Will these new rounds ever be commonly available, popular, or chambered by US makers, I'm almost certain they never will be.  Do they offer anything over the 416 Remington, Rigby, Dakota Wetherby or 458 Lott, 450 Rigby/Dakota, 460 Wetherby, certainly not.  Will they sell more guns for H&H, you can count on it!

[Nobade]

That .400 H&H looks like just the ticket for playing around with cast bullets of normal weight and pistol weight, since it takes the same diameter as .41 mag. You could load it to full potential a few times for grins and then spend years plinking with light loads. Kinda like a .416 Rigby!

[John R]

Being a newbie first time poster on this forum, I asked Paul H, before posting, if the gents here might be interested in seeing what the 400 H&H is all about.  Seems this cartridge has received a lot of bashing over on the AR forum.  Not much use in bashing this cartridge, as it serves a niche.  Both the 400 and 465 H&H are interesting cartridges, and with performance I am certain will be much more than the nay sayers predict.  I have put a good bit of effort in both cartridges, obtaining chamber prints and having reamers ground for the 400 and I will do the same for the 465.  The 465 is based on the 378/460 Weatherby brass and has the same long neck and gentle shoulder of the 400, also at a 3.500" length.

Hopefully the below post and photo helps to take some of the mystery out of this cartridge.  

So, to get on with it, below is my synopsis of the 400, along with a photo comparing the 416 Remington and the 404 Jeffery.

400 Holland and Holland Cartridge

Holland’s new cartridge is based on the 375 H&H brass, and uses a .411” diameter bullet.  Case length is 2.846 inches, and overall cartridge length is 3.500 inches.   The neck is long, in fact, when a bullet is seated to the cannelure; the base of the bullet is at the neck/shoulder junction, where it should be.    Shoulder angle is 8 degrees.  The combination of a long neck and the gentle shoulder has a few advantages over cartridges like the 416 Remington with the sharper shoulder and short neck: One, the 400 H&H feeds very nicely out of the magazine.  Two, the 400 H&H case is less likely to stick in the chamber after firing if both the loads and the ambient temperature are a little “warm.”

Many have bashed the 400 H&H when comparing it to the 416 Remington, saying:   “Why another caliber near the “416”, and performance surely will be way below the 416 Remington.”    As the 416’s are very popular, affluent hunters wanting a Holland and Holland bolt gun desired a cartridge other than a 416 Remington.  My interpretation is Holland and Holland needed a unique cartridge to supplement their line of cartridges and relied on a long period of experience with the 450/400 Nitro Express cartridge in order to design a new cartridge.  

Performance?  Well, when you really look at both cartridges, performance really is not an issue.  Cartridge performance is based on case powder capacity, and a measure of case capacity is how much water is held.    The 416 Remington case holds 104.5 grains of water, and the 400 Holland holds 100.5 grains of water (for a die formed case, it will be a little higher after fire forming).   Not much difference.   And, in the photo below, the 416 Remington case is misleading: The bullet base is way down in the powder space when the bullet is properly seated to the cannelure. For those studying the numbers, the 400 H&H bullets have a slight edge in sectional density.  

I have chamber reamers for the 400 Holland and Holland (both a finish chamber reamer and a resize die reamer).   I have a Krieger barrel ordered; hopefully it will arrive soon as it has been on order since early January of 2003.

When the Krieger barrel arrives, I will chamber the barrel, install it on an action, and test fire using the Oehler M43 velocity and pressure measuring equipment.    QuickLoad predicts 2400 ft/sec at under 55,000 psi, this is about the same as 416 Remington performance.      

Rifle construction: The cartridge will feed out of any standard H&H Magnum sized action with at least a 3.500” magazine length.   Barrels are a problem, as Krieger is the only US maker that offers a .411 barrel.  I am talking now with other barrel makers about making the barrels.  

Cartridges:   No cartridges available in the US, and they are almost impossible to obtain from Holland and Holland.   I will be set up to form cases from basic H&H brass (straight with no head stamp) and I will soon have a head stamp die, so I may properly head stamp the brass.

In summary, if one likes traditional British produced African cartridges, is willing to put up with the case forming situation, and has the time to wait for both barrel production and the custom rifle building, then the 400 Holland and Holland is a nice choice.   I like the cartridge, as just looking at it makes me think of old-time Africa and classic African cartridges.

In the photo, we have the 416 Remington on the left, the 400 Holland & Holland in the center, and the 404 Jeffery on the right.  All bullets seated to the cannelure.  416 Remington case looks shorter, as it has a very heavy crimp.  3.550” COL on the 416 Remington, 3.500” COL on the 400 H&H, and 3.53” COL on the 404 Jeffery.  Just remember, the base of the bullet in the 416 Rem is down in the case taking up powder space.

[Yukon Jack]

John R,
Thanks for the info on the 400 H&H, I really do believe it serve its designed purpose well.  I'm kinda itching to try one out.

Question for you is, I thought Douglas was producing a 411 barrel now.  I know Fred Zeglin, at Z-Hat, prefers to use Douglas XX barrels for his 411 Hawk.  What I don't know is if he gets a heavier contoured 375 barrel and bores it out to 411, but I had thought he was using barrels from Douglas and just cutting the chambers.  Just a question, I, for one, am very interested in the 400 H&H.

Take care,
YJ

[John R]

Jack,

I rarely use Douglas barrels and did not think of calling them for a .411 barrel.  In fact, another gent reminded me of the Douglas .411 yesterday.   I will put a call into them today.    I mostly use Krieger, Pac Nor, Lothar Walther and Lilja, usually due to customer demand.    Kireger makes a very good barrel, but the overly long wait is getting out of hand.   One of the problems in .411 barrels (and other big bores!) is the barrel makers use too slow a twist, like 16, 18, or 20.   I like 12 inch twist and have been known to use 10 inches.  Cut rifle barrelmakers can easily change the rifling machine twist rate, but for button rifled barrels, gotta grind a new button, Pac Nor charges $250 for this.  Of course, if several barrels are ordered, can spread this cost among the barrels.  Few barrel makers offer .411 barrels due to the low demand, and one is quoting me over $700 just for tooling cost.  Woodleigh and Barnes make bullets.

As soon as the barrel arrives and I get it chambered, I will post more info.   I am thinking of using a Montana M99 action (got two of them in the vault), but may opt for a Mauser or a pre 64 M70.  You may contact me directly, email is rifles@earthlink.net

In my opinion, the 400 H&H is a very adequate cartridge and useful for large American bears, Moose and Elk, plus it is a wonderful African cartridge.   True, the "stoppers" in 458 Lott and up are very effective, but from what I have experienced, they are a real handful in the recoil department, and most owners have difficulty in shooting them accurately.  I have built up to 505 Gibbs and .510 A-Square, regulating ths sights on the rifles is an experience to say the least.   On game, as most know, it all comes down to good shot placement.