Author Topic: fast twist .54  (Read 1840 times)

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Offline wgr

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fast twist .54
« on: April 08, 2007, 03:38:25 PM »
 has any one ever had a .54cal. with a twist faster than 1 in 48. was thinking about reaming out and old .50cal that has a rough bore. and having it rifled .  you guys think that a 1in 30 are 1 in 28. would be to fast. i want to shoot paper patch bullets in it. thinks for any help you can offer
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 02:24:30 AM »
I have the GPR .54 and I bought the hunter barrel for it. It is one in thirty-two twist. I shoots the Lee bullets very well.
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 03:08:27 PM »
Depends on what weight bullet you want to shoot in it.  Typically, paper patch bullets fired from muzzleloaders, at least in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries, were long for caliber and rarely over 45 caliber.   In 54 caliber that is going to be a very heavy bullet.  Recoil will be consiberable.

There is a formula for calculating twist rate and I know it's in one of my books......but which one!?!?!?!??!!   Hopefully someone will know the formula.

Vic
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Offline Lawful Larry

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 05:46:08 AM »
I have a Cabela's Sportized Hunting Hawkens Carrbine with a 20" barrel in .54 cal.  It has a twist rate of 1 in 24".

As far as recoil, it is a pussy cat.  I love this gun. 
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 12:56:34 PM »
Larry must be shooting sabots and light for caliber bullets in his fast twist 54.  It certainly isn't optimum for caliber bullet length and weight.  The reason 50 and 54 caliber rifles are not seen in BPCR and weren't used but very little, if at all, for paper patch bullets in muzzleloaders is because short for caliber bullets are not stable at much distance.  Period.  For bullets in calibers that large, indeed any caliber, they should be long for caliber to be truly stable.  One needs only look at what the long range shooters use, myself included.  You don't see any 300 gr. bullets in 45 caliber winning any matches any more than you see 240 grain 40 caliber bullets winning any matches.  Nor do you see 150 grain, 30 caliber bullets being used.  The same was true of the 40 and 45 caliber paper patch bullets back in the 1850-1900 era.  A careful reading of Ned Roberts "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" should be required.

As I understand it the standard load for the M2 Browning MG is a 710 grain bullet at 2700 fps.  The Barret is similar.  Obviously we aren't going to drive bullets that heavy, that fast out of any muzzleloader, not a real muzzleloader anyway, but the fact remains that a bullet of heavy weight, 600+ grains, is desired for a 50 caliber for longer than average distance or paper patch shooting.  A 600 grain bullet at 1400 fps generates significant recoil.  For 54 caliber the bullet would necessarily be even heavier.  Quite possibly in the realm of 900 grians.   That's about 8 bore round ball weights.  Drive 900 grains of bullet to 1100-1300 fps and see what the recoil is like.  It will not be a pussycat, even in a heavy rifle.  India and African hunting literature is replete with accounts of such rifles and smoothbores being used.  That information isn't difficult to find.

WGR, your idea of reaming out a 50 and rifling it to 54 is interesting and sounds like something I would like to do.  The 1-28 rate of twist seems to me adequate but I'd do some serious research first.  I also have an interest in paper patch muzzleloading, conical shooting rifles, altho I've never owned or fired one and neither time nor funds allow me to pursue it now.  That's another project that comes under the heading of "some day".  I would highly recommend you find a copy of Ned Roberts book, mentioned above, and digest everything he says about the paper patch.  Even if you decide not to do the rifle the reading is very interesting and enlightening.

The 54 idea sounds like a lot of fun.....but it seems to me some decisions about what you want to do with the rifle and how accurate you want it to be at what range need to be made.


As modern as some so called muzzleloaders have become they are still light years away from the abilities of the golden age of paper patch shooting, cap lock muzzleloaders.  Those with fine aperature sights, false muzzles and near perfect triggers and locks.  All average rifles still stand in their shadow.
Vic
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Offline Landngroove

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2007, 12:35:48 PM »
Thompson Center used a 1 in 38" twist in its .54 caliber Black Mountain Magnum (Westerner), FireHawk, ThunderHawk, and System One, Muzzleloaders.

Offline wgr

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 03:55:36 PM »
as of now i shoot paper patch bullets in my two 50cal,s  one has a 1in 28    and one in i in 48 i shoot a 400 grain smooth bullet in both  the 1 in 48 is  good to about 100 yards  the other out to 150/175  just thought sence i had a barrell that needs some work a 54 would be good
have tc peep sights on both
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 12:21:51 AM »
That's a short, stubby bullet for a 50.  My E. M. Reilley, 500 BPE shoots a 380 grainer and it's really short and stubby but it's a short range hunting rifle.  400 can't be much longer as for decades 405 grains has been a "standard", (if that term can be used), in the 45-2.1, (70), and that isn't a very long bullet.

Are you wrapping your paper patch bullets, al la the British and the U. S. BPC cartridges, or, are you using a false muzzle and a cross patch such as was used in muzzleloaders?  In muzzleloaders the false muzzle and cross patch are the kind I'm most familar with and the type Roberts describes..  Billinghurst and Brockaway are two of the old makers that come to mind who built rifles for that style of patch.  They built some fantastically accurate rifles.

The 54 sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it!
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Offline wgr

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2007, 03:56:42 AM »
 i rap the bullet two times with 9lb onion skin. size to .495 and patch to right at .500. the reason i started doing this was the power belt bullet thing.  now i have a slip fit bullet that i make for a fraction  of the cost. and it will slam a whitetail
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2007, 09:34:18 AM »
when a patched roundball does the same thing with a lot less trouble......ok.  And all along I thought this thread was about traditional paper patched muzzleloaders.....which it obviously wasn't.  The 54 project suddenly lost all interest.

Vic
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Offline Lawful Larry

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 02:39:56 AM »
Larry must be shooting sabots and light for caliber bullets in his fast twist 54.  It certainly isn't optimum for caliber bullet length and weight.  The reason 50 and 54 caliber rifles are not seen in BPCR and weren't used but very little, if at all, for paper patch bullets in muzzle loaders is because short for caliber bullets are not stable at much distance.   Vic

I haven't shot any sabots yet.  So far I have shot the Maxi's and the lead power belts.  Both shot extremely well and tight groups.  I suppose the twist rate would be ideal for sabots, but I would rather shoot lead bullets only and stay as close to traditional as possible. 

My gun is a muzzle-loading hunting rifle and not a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle (BPCR).  I bought it because of the short barrel and weight.  It would be much easier for this old fart to hump in the woods.  But from all the articles I have read from Mike Venturino about BPCR stated that the optimum long range caliber was the 50. 

But then again I think the original poster was talking about a front stuffer and not a cartridge rifle!  I am new to the muzzle-loading scene, but can you use paperpatch bullets with a muzzleloader???  I thought they were only used in BP cartridges.
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 12:52:47 AM »
A 50cal. is an incredible long range caliber in BPCR but again it will be with the long and heavy for caliber bullets.  When those weight bullets and the powder charges needed to propel them to decent velocities are used recoil becomes a significant factor.  Mike may have indeed said the 50 is the optimum but he doesn't shoot it and neither does anyone else I know.  These days you see a lot more 40-70 SS and 40-65's on the range, winning, than you do even the venerable 45-70 and recoil is the reason.  A 40-60 shot string from prone or sitting will demonstrate dramatically the accumulative effects of recoil.  I don't know anyone doing that in matches with a 50.

Maxi balls and those of similar style are grand hunting bullets and compare favorably with the BPC rifles and their traditional hunting weight bullets, but not the long range target projectiles.

wgr and I have corresponded and he is using a paper patched bullet the same as those used in BPC rifles and obviously with success.  To use paper patched bullets thus had not occurred to me but I don't see any reason they wouldn't work as long as the envelope isn't torn upon loading.  Apparently wgr has no problem with that happening. 

The paper patch bullet I've been referring to is the type covered in fairly good detail by Ned Roberts in his book which is also the same kind I've seen used and am most familiar with.  The bullet isn't wrapped as in BPC rifle, the patch is loaded similar to a patched round ball by using a false muzzle which is grooved to properly place the paper strips/patch and introduce both patch and projectile correctly into the bore.  Quite a different method from what wgr is doing.

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Offline Snowshoe

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 05:03:51 AM »
The .54 cal round ball that weighs in at around 230g is good for anything that I will ever shoot. I have shot 380g bullets from my .50 cal and couldn't imagine hating myself enough to shoot even larger bullets from my .54. I like the traditional thing, using round balls, and if I want to shoot long range with a muzzle loader, I will use a .45 with  bullets. The old buffalo hunters used more .45's than anything else. Bore it out and rifle it 1 turn in 70" and make a real muzzle loader out of it.
Snowshoe

Offline wgr

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Re: fast twist .54
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 05:04:41 PM »
thinks for the comments guys. now all i have to do is decide what to do. you guys are more than likely  right about about the recoil will probably just go with a 1in 66 are 70 twist . but as for the paper patch hunting rounds in my 50cal  ill stay with them i like the knock down and fast follow ups if needed  never have but never know. last season i had a buck and two doe tags  that i filled in just under 2min  ranges from 20 to 85 yards  i wont change that combo at all
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