Author Topic: Wash DC gun law overturned  (Read 1691 times)

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Wash DC gun law overturned
« on: March 09, 2007, 03:01:41 PM »
For those who have not heard, the DC Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the DC ban on handguns.

I partitlarly love the part about "the Second Amendment  protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new government under the Constitution..."


"To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad)."



Read it all here:
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200703/04-7041a.pdf
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Harold50

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 03:43:18 PM »
Wow!
Bet the homicides go down.
Not mentioned on the national news shows, huh?
Hmmmnn? Imagine that.

Harold
Vermont Constitution: Article 16th. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State...

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2007, 03:53:01 PM »
Glad to see that.  ;D
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Offline handirifle

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 04:33:31 PM »
Whahooo!  Freedom actually wins one. ;D
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Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 10:47:27 AM »
I wouldnt be too over-joyed just yet.  The stage is now set for an Appeal to the Supreme Court, where the fight of a lifetime awaits both sides of the arguement.

What you percieve as a right may come down to a decision of the Court in D.C..
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 11:40:07 AM »
I wouldnt be too over-joyed just yet.  The stage is now set for an Appeal to the Supreme Court, where the fight of a lifetime awaits both sides of the arguement.

What you percieve as a right may come down to a decision of the Court in D.C..

The Supreme Court does not decide what is a right and what is not.  They may not agree. but I'll decide for myself.  The Founding Fathers got this one right when they wrote that all men "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".  The Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution) does not grant rights but simply recognizes pre-existing rights.
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Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 10:22:14 PM »
All I'm telling you is the decision in D.C. concerning the ban of Handguns may not be over yet.  The U.S. Supreme Court tells you what the Constitution says.  That is their job... To interpret the Consitution.  You can flip it around in your head all you want, but when it comes down to it, the Supreme Court has the last say.

I am no more in favor of restrictive gun laws than most people on this website are.  Unlike most, I have read the Feredalists Papers, so I have seen what the Founding Fathers said in their own words concerning firearms.   

But since this decision may go to the same Supreme Court that ruled that a Municipality can take your property so a Hotel or other Development can be built to pump up the Tax Base, I would not be too over-joyed to hear that an Appeals Court has knocked down a ban on Handguns in D.C. and that the District of Columbia is going to Appeal the ruling. 

If the Supreme Court refuses to hear this case, then the Hand Gun Ban has been successfully defeated.  But if the Supreme Court agrees to hear the appeal, then this case could go either way.  And right now, I'm not too certain how they would rule. 

Doing a Happy Dance at this time is a little premature.  IMO.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 07:40:02 PM »
We're back to the prime question.  Will the US Supreme Court rule favorably for individual firearms possession and use.  I agree with previous posts that the Court in other decisions have leaned toward social benefits with regard to private ownership.  However, several recent opinions by the Court have referenced the Second Amendment along with others as an individual right.  I too agree that the right is fundamental and exists prior to this Government or without it.  I think the Court will rule in favor of individual ownership of firearms but the wording of the opinion will be fraught with loopholes.   One need look at the Miller decision and realize that the ruling was a win for firearms possession.  Again, though the anti's quote this source as a denial of firearms ownership and individual possession. The Supremes' have not in any ruling actually stated that firearms ownership and possession is not an individual right.  I, too have read the Federalists Papers, That Every Citizen Be Armed, and Constitutional Records on debate.  It is eminently clear that the 2nd Amendment is a double edged weapon.  The first part enumerates the states' collective right to self defense, while the second part specifically acknowledges the right of individuals to own and carry personal firearms.  The second part of Amendment states the individual right "....shall not be infringed"  Infringed by definition means ignored.  By this inference of existing conditions of a fundamental right, our founding fathers could not grant it as such, and so recognized it as untouchable.  With the proper Attorney presenting applicable evidence, I am confidant the Court will uphold the District Courts' ruling.  Anyway, it is good news.
Greg
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Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2007, 08:43:14 PM »
I hate when I see people talking sense... It's too easy to follow. 

I would recommend that everyone who hasn't done it yet, read the Federalists Papers.  It is not a short read, but it can lead you to understand what some of the Revolutionaries were thinking when they drafted the Bill of Rights and Constitution in the unprecidented break with England.  The Papers are available on the internet.   As long as you know the Supreme Court is not required to take into consideration what the Federalists Papers say, you will be ok. 
 
Secondly, I would never take for granted what the Supreme Court will decide.  Sometimes they do things just to upset the Apple Cart and ensure their own Job Security for years to come.  Clearly it is a State's right to limit ownership of almost anything, if the State deems it necessary.  Whether it is the District of Columbia's right, since it is not a State, is another question.  It may come down to whether the Supreme Court and other Gov't workers think they want you walking around D.C. with a loaded gun of any kind.  Your rights of ownership will not compete with those D.C. egos.

This one can be the one that starts the ball rolling.   Beware.
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Offline jro45

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2007, 04:16:23 AM »
That's Great. Those people have done with out for a long time.

Offline thxmrgarand

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2007, 05:29:14 AM »
We - all gun owners - could win big or lose big in this.  And it has the potential to be a feature of the 2008 elections.  So we need to send what money we can spare to the NRA.  We are so fortunate to have a single, intelligent, and strong focal point for our right to keep and bear arms. 

Offline deltecs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2007, 10:32:26 AM »
Again, I agree with the previous post on the controversial nature of this decision and resultant potential Supreme Opinion.  One of the good things about this particular case is that D. C. is not part of a State.  Therefore, the States' laws have no intervention in interpretation of the Constitution in deciding whether to uphold this lower Courts ruling.  The 9th Amendment enumerates that rights not ceded to the states or to the US belong to the people.  In this case there is no State for rights to be ceded to, so the rights recognized by the US Constitution should be the prevailing law.  This is a case that should not be muddied up with state's militia or national guard as the prevailing right.  No State, No national guard, no militia, just US citizen under US Constitutional law.  That is why I said in my previous post that the Supremes will leave loopholes in the Opinion for this case to be presented again in the future with States' law under review.   
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 12:56:01 AM »
Are you still as confident in your position as you were prior to the recent shootings at Virginia Tech ?

I wouldn't be if I were you. 

I can see the disaster at V-T as the turning point for gun ownership in America.  A majority will not stand for 32 College Students slaughtered by a crazed gunman, who reportedly had LEGALLY purchased his tools of death.  All those Students did wrong that morning was go to class in an effort to better themselves.  Not a Capital Offense in my book.

I know the arguement about the 2nd Amendment and individual rights.  I own guns.  But stuff like the Executions at V-T only frighten more and more people when it comes to gun ownership.  And we will soon start paying the price. 

I have a feeling that 'enough is enough' now.  Columbine Colo., Pa. Amish Kids, and now V-T (probably many more). 

Look for the Supreme Court to uphold the D.C. ban on handguns. 
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 02:42:19 AM »
jvs:  You may be correct in that some people will simply 'have had enough' of the random and violent acts of the deranged few, yet I sincerely do not believe that this entire country will lay down and roll over on any of our Constitutional rights due to the violent actions of a 'deranged few'.  While we may have come close to this in the past we have not gone 'Canadian', yet.

We have always punished our criminals - we would have punished this one too if he hadn't turned his weapon on himself.  We have not denied all others their 'rights' based on the actions of a crazed few - many have tried but it doesn't work out that way and I would hope it would not. 

I find it interesting that liberal campuses are one of those places where people speak to anything they want - they have the right to free speech - but nobody ever tells them to look closely at what people write or how they act - some consider it a student's natural creativity.  This killer had apparently, written and made all the wrong types of statements that should have alerted someone (except students or teachers) but apparently either none were interested or aware of which way it might go.

The interesting thing about psychological autopsies is that you can usually plainly see where someone started veering off the beaten track and the question has always come up of 'why didn't someone do something at the time - because nobody 'thought' (that is, nobody on a college campus thought) that it meant anything.

The headlines in today's paper - 'Gunman's Chilling Portrait Emerges' - what, nobody ever looked at his behavior before and said 'we have to deal with this kid before he goes off the track - not on a college campus.  The photo shows a bunch of college kids looking sadly into their candle cups and I know everyone will decry guns as a result of this but nobody will ever turn around and say - every college kid should have a psyciatric profile completed within the first 6 months of school and every 6 months thereafter and any sign of detachment or other symptomotology merits treatment.  Colleges would fee that horribly intrusive, but no more so than gun owners feel about gun bans. 

Most of our gun owning citizens are held to pretty high standards before they can get ccws - we face background checks and, if there have been any concerns from the past such as DWIs they may even have to obtain a determination that they don't do that anymore before they can get a pistol permit (in NYS).  Nobody looks at the background of college students to periodically evaluate their mental capacity for continuing at school as they propose to continue to evaluate our capacity to carry firearms.

These 'loners' and 'strange ones' are sooo easy to spot, even on a college campus yet nobody takes notice or says anything about it and I think it is time we began advocating for some measure of responsibility for this on colleges and in our high schools. 

We can spot those people on the gun ranges - they're the ones who empty their firearms at a target while yelling 'die witch' or something else like that and appear very 'uptight' in their other behaviors.  We can resort them to the police or the DAs office and something may be done about it.  I once came to the range as one fellow was 'peeling out' of the range road.  When I went to post my targets I saw a photograph of a woman and child that had been used as a target.  I got the name from the sign in sheet for the range and called the locals, who sent an officer up.  I showed him the picture and the sign in sheet and his comment was 'this doesn't look good' and thanks for notifying us.  I never heard another thing about it, but never saw that club member again, either. 

I guess what I am saying is that we all have responsibilities, whether on the campus, in the shool halls, on the street or at the range and one of those responsibilities is to take appropriate action when we feel something is wrong.  Colleges fail to do this; schools fail to do this, yet they will blame all of us and attempt to deny us our rights while refusing to take responsibility themselves.  JMTCW.  Mikey. 

Offline deltecs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 11:02:36 AM »
Are you still as confident in your position as you were prior to the recent shootings at Virginia Tech ?

I wouldn't be if I were you. 

I can see the disaster at V-T as the turning point for gun ownership in America.  A majority will not stand for 32 College Students slaughtered by a crazed gunman, who reportedly had LEGALLY purchased his tools of death.  All those Students did wrong that morning was go to class in an effort to better themselves.  Not a Capital Offense in my book.

I know the arguement about the 2nd Amendment and individual rights.  I own guns.  But stuff like the Executions at V-T only frighten more and more people when it comes to gun ownership.  And we will soon start paying the price. 

I have a feeling that 'enough is enough' now.  Columbine Colo., Pa. Amish Kids, and now V-T (probably many more). 

Look for the Supreme Court to uphold the D.C. ban on handguns. 


I'm pointing out my previous posts about the correct attorney presenting the pro gun case.  Keep the issues on the legal terms and lots of evidence of Constitutional Intent (ie legislative intent), refute the unified militia angle, and tout natural right to self preservation and with this conservative court, I still believe the Court will uphold the lower Court decision.  The opinion, though will be fraught with conditions that limits the decision to this case, so that the issue will be addressed again under different circumstances.  Remember in light of most of these other major massacres that these zones were and are free of firearms possession by law.   Yet, every victim in every case had the fundamental right to defend themselves.  A firearm in legal possession may have prevented some of the deaths or injuries.  The residents of DC deserve the same legal right to self protection. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 01:06:18 PM »
I too believe that the residents of D.C. have a legal right to self protection.  I, along with alot of other people, also believe that 32 people at Virginia tech had a right to live a full and fruitful life that was not cut short in a Dormatory or Classroom by someone who lied on a firearms application about his mental past and proceeded to execute innocent youngsters.

If these situations can not be stopped soon, everybody's legal rights to self protection will consist of swinging a baseball bat at a perp.  If you don't think public safety is a legal right, think again.

There may be alot of guns out there, but they are kept by a tiny minority of the population.   There are a h*ll of a lot more people who are terrified of guns than there are people that own them.   There are 300 Million people in this country and if this stuff doesn't stop, the majority will actively express a will against gun ownership. 

The Second Amendment has no more protection for the killing of the Innocents than the First Amendment has for yelling 'Fire' in a crowded Theater.   And the Supreme Court does not want things like V-T happeneing in their own back yard.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 02:22:24 PM »
"As early as 2005, police and school administrators were wrestling with what to do with Cho, who was accused of stalking two female students and was sent to a mental health facility after police obtained a temporary detention order."
This quote was from MSNBC breaking news regarding VT massacre.  Cho Seung-Hui DID NOT OBTAIN HIS FIREARMS LEGALLY.  As a resident alien with a green card and above the age of 21, Cho had the right according to the Brady Law to obtain and posses a handgun.  However, he did not go throught the NICS as required by federal law and also bought the firearm ulawfully on campus premises in violation of State law.  And we do know that semil auto handguns do bear a military historical use in the past and currently.  This refutes any excuse to deny ownership and possession due to precedent set my Miller.  The DC sniper was in the Courts' bacxkyard and had no influence on the lower Courts decision to overturn the City's prohibition.  Are we to understand that the Supreme Court Justices have less fortitude because a demented loose cannon went berserk with a handgun?
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline BigJakeJ1s

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 04:30:02 PM »
Let's not forget that the similar shooting tragedy at the Luby's cafeteria in TX several years ago was a big catalyst in the successful bid to allow lawful concealed carry (with permit) in TX.

It all depends on how you look at it.

Recently, a VA state bill was voted down in committee that would have forbade state universities from preventing lawfully permitted concealed carry by students, faculty and visitors on campus. Wonder how that might have tipped the balance in this tragedy...

Andy

Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 09:50:42 PM »
It will be a bumpy ride.  And I believe the incremental erosion of the Second Amendment will get worse from here on in.  This is the event that starts closing the door.  The assumption that a deranged killer who is planning a crime will be truthful when filling out a Federal Form for obtaining firearms appears to be idiotic.  Obviously, he wanted to be known for something.....and now he is.

Unfortunately, there are a growing number of people who believe that denying everyone access to prevent the few from obtaining firearms is the way to go.  With events like V-T, it is no wonder.   

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Offline thxmrgarand

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 06:52:13 AM »
I am much more optimistic than writers of some of the previous postings may be.  I have copies of the American Rifleman from the 1940's where fear of gun control is thoroughly discussed.  The 1968 Gun Control Act was a direct result of the Kennedy assassination of course.   I was a teenager when that was enacted, and many adults believed at that time that private gun ownership would soon be illegal.  However, thanks to efforts of the NRA and its members we now have CCW laws in most states and so-called castle laws in many.  The great majority of households in the city of 30,000 where I live have firearms.  The local school system puts 6th graders through an outdoors survival skills course each year that includes gun safety and shooting.  So long as gun owners fully participate in the political process, and at least for me that means not merely voting but giving money to candidates (and to the NRA of course), going door-to-door for political candidates, helping with fundraisers, and helping with pro-gun public events, I will bet that our gun rights will be sustained in this republic.  We also need to help youths learn about gun safety and shooting; I am so grateful to the people who do so much more of that than I do.  Because of the preponderance of CCW laws, it may be only a matter of time until a shooter like the one at Virginia Tech is stopped by a private citizen carrying a concealed firearm.  Gun owners need to make sure that when that occurs, the NRA is strong enough and there are enough pro-gun politicians in office that the media cannot disregard it or spin it in a deceitful way.

Offline dakotah

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 01:53:49 AM »
An interesting and timely topic; but what is it doing in this forum?

Offline jvs

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 10:17:06 PM »
An interesting and timely topic; but what is it doing in this forum?

As the sole member of the Forum Police, you should realize that a topic such as this is universal on a website that has many gun owners as this one has.  Unfortunate events such as the one at V-T can have long lasting consequences regardless of what the firearms forum is.   If that topic and thread had no reason at all for being here, I am sure it would have been moved.

Besides, this is an easy going place. 
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2007, 02:13:43 PM »
An interesting and timely topic; but what is it doing in this forum?

It is here because as Moderator I felt the court decision was important and deserved broader attention than it would have received on political forums only, as many folks don't visit those forums.

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Offline S.S.

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Re: Wash DC gun law overturned
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2007, 04:47:55 AM »
Well done for leaving it here C.H. Some moderators are a bit "High Strung"
(read as ANAL) about topics on the forums they moderate. Some topics relate to all gun forums .

The problem in the VT shootings was that the Shooter had no right to posses the firearms in the first place. Right to privacy had prevented the seller of the Guns to know that he was a psycho..
The right to privacy laws are to blame in this case... Not any gun laws.
and to answer one of the previous posts, There are 70+ MILLION gun owners in the U.S.of A
That is not a tiny portion. That is probably well over half of the "LEGAL" voting population..
Things like this at VT only go to show that the Police can not or will not protect the civilian
population.. I would wager there was a Jump in firearms sales in the last week.
This was a tragedy that was perpetrated by a Psycho.. If he had not had a gun,
he would have used some other means..
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".