Handi' Method of Rifling

[safetysheriff]

i have never seen this in print anywhere that i can remember.   if anybody knows, how do they rifle the Handi' barrels ....... other than those that are micro-grooved?      i'd expect it to be a button-rifling process.....but would hope otherwise, particularly with some of the hotrod calibers we can buy these rifles in. 

can anybody help?

ss'   

[quickdtoo]

They're button rifled, although the new .444 Marlin barrel is broached.

Tim

[safetysheriff]

Quick'

i had a feeling you'd know the answer.    but i figured that if i only PM'd you that the others not knowing this answer wouldn't see your reply.

thank you, as always.

best regards,

ss'   

[quickdtoo]

You're welcome, makes sense to me, ss!

Tim

[WyrTwister]

They're button rifled, although the new .444 Marlin barrel is broached.

Tim

     How about .45-70 ?

Wyr
God bless

[quickdtoo]

The 45-70s are button rifled too, as are all of the rest except the current production .444 which is done by Marlin.

Tim

[WyrTwister]

The 45-70s are button rifled too, as are all of the rest except the current production .444 which is done by Marlin.

Tim

     I am thinking about a BC in .45-70 .  I am guessing the button rifling is deep enough for cast lead bullets ?

     I have been thinking about the pricing . 

     Cost of something like a .45 LC Handi + a BC .45-70 barrel VS the cost of a BC .

     Using Walley World pricing for the rifle and the H&R cost of a BC .45-70 barrel ?


     I have a Micro Groove Marlin .45-70 and I have never had much much w/ cast bullets past 1150 fps . 

     I am going to try some bigger bullets ( .460 " )  & 30 grains of 2400   .

     Wish me luck .  :-)

God bless
Wyr

[quickdtoo]

Cast bullets will shoot real well in either a Handi or BC 45-70, they just need to be sized properly for the bore, slug the bore with a #8 soft lead egg sinker and choose a cast bullet .001"-.002" larger than the groove to groove depth and it will perform well. I shoot .459" cast bullets in my 45-70s Handis and 45-120 BC, they shoot acceptionally well. I've shot nice groups at 200yds with the 45-120 and 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers at about 1700fps.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Good luck getting a .45-70 from Walmart, their supplier Sports South hasn't had one in stock for a long time, you'll end up on a waiting list most likely, see the FAQs on Walmart special order firearms. You may be better off ordering a 45 Colt Carbine and having a BC barrel fitted. Sportsmans Warehouse usually has the BC in stock, they sell em for $350.

RR has both Handis available, but not neither BC.

Tim

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?action=1037&brand=NEG&cali=45-70%20Cal

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GCR45LC

200yd BC...The lower 3 shots were made after the upper sighter shot and sight adjustment of the Williams FP target sight, amazing for my old eyes!!

[cowboyup453]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy the 45-70 BC and have a 45 colt barrel fitted?
http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx
Last I heard the colts are more expensive than the 45-70 BC.

[quickdtoo]

The Colt and 45-70 are the same price at RR, see my previous links, they seem to have good availability compared to other sources, so I would think once the Colt gets into production, a person would have a good chance of getting one from them, unlike the 45-70 BC which seems to get limited production.

Tim

[WyrTwister]

Cast bullets will shoot real well in either a Handi or BC 45-70, they just need to be sized properly for the bore, slug the bore with a #8 soft lead egg sinker and choose a cast bullet .001"-.002" larger than the groove to groove depth and it will perform well. I shoot .459" cast bullets in my 45-70s Handis and 45-120 BC, they shoot acceptionally well. I've shot nice groups at 200yds with the 45-120 and 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers at about 1700fps.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Good luck getting a .45-70 from Walmart, their supplier Sports South hasn't had one in stock for a long time, you'll end up on a waiting list most likely, see the FAQs on Walmart special order firearms. You may be better off ordering a 45 Colt Carbine and having a BC barrel fitted. Sportsmans Warehouse usually has the BC in stock, they sell em for $350.

RR has both Handis available, but not neither BC.

Tim


http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?action=1037&brand=NEG&cali=45-70%20Cal

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GCR45LC

     Hmmmmmm .

     Did not realize the .45 LC was a BC . 

     Was thinking of a .45 LC as just a Handi & maybe as an example .  I do not have a rifle in that caliber .  And the recoil in the Handi ( light weight ) might be more managable ?

     I already have rifles in .30-06  , 223 , 7.62 NATO , .308 Win .44 Mag , 8mm Mauser , 6.5mm Swede , 7.62 MN , 7.62 mm Argie Mauser , .22 LR , .30 Carbine and the .45-70 Marlin .

     Do not have a .30-30 , but not really leaning in that direction .

     7mm Mauser might be an idea , but not sure they make a Handi in that caliber ?  Not sure about the recoil ?

     Thanks for the help .

God bless
Wyr


PS     Did some looking , the .45-70 BC Barrel does not come with sights ?

[quickdtoo]

No, the accessory 45-70 BC barrel comes sightless, you can order the front sight with it, but it may not be the one you'll want, they put one of two 17A sights on the BC, a .494" or .584", the .584" is too tall, the .494" works, but the .404" works best as far as many are concerned here, they don't offer it. They offer 3 rear sights, the William WGRS, and 2 different FP sights, one with target knobs, you probably won't find a better price on any of the Williams sights that at H&R. If you're gonna scope it, you'll need to order a scope base.

The Colt Carbine comes with a ramp rear sight, but it is drilled and tapped for a scope base or the WGRS sight. You could have the 20" Colt barrel fitted to a Handi frame, there's no difference in the BC or Handi frames, they're all SB2 frames. I wouldn't be concerned about 45 Colt recoil, compared to the 45-70 or 500 S&W, it's a lightweight.

The only 7mm barrels currently offered are the 22" 7mm-08 and 26" .280 Remington, they have in the past made Handis in 7x57 and 7x64, but finding one of those used is as rare as hens teeth.

Ya can't have too many Handis, many of us here have a bunch, not just barrels, but complete rifles, there's always room for more!!

Tim

[WyrTwister]

No, the accessory 45-70 BC barrel comes sightless, you can order the front sight with it, but it may not be the one you'll want, they put one of two 17A sights on the BC, a .494" or .584", the .584" is too tall, the .494" works, but the .404" works best as far as many are concerned here, they don't offer it. They offer 3 rear sights, the William WGRS, and 2 different FP sights, one with target knobs, you probably won't find a better price on any of the Williams sights that at H&R. If you're gonna scope it, you'll need to order a scope base.

The Colt Carbine comes with a ramp rear sight, but it is drilled and tapped for a scope base or the WGRS sight. You could have the 20" Colt barrel fitted to a Handi frame, there's no difference in the BC or Handi frames, they're all SB2 frames. I wouldn't be concerned about 45 Colt recoil, compared to the 45-70 or 500 S&W, it's a lightweight.

The only 7mm barrels currently offered are the 22" 7mm-08 and 26" .280 Remington, they have in the past made Handis in 7x57 and 7x64, but finding one of those used is as rare as hens teeth.

Ya can't have too many Handis, many of us here have a bunch, not just barrels, but complete rifles, there's always room for more!!

     I picked up a NEF 20 guage shotgun at KMart last week .  But from what I read , you can only have muzzle loader or shotgun barrels fitted to ir ?    :-(

     Shame , I doubt the pressure of a .45 LC is much more than a shotgun  .   :-(


God bless
Wyr

[quickdtoo]

Depends on what loads you feed it, there are two levels of 45 Colt loads, the upper level is about double shotgun pressures.  The 45Colt/.410 Barrel is available for shotgun frames, but shooting a 45Colt with about 3" of freebore has to loose a lot of pressure. H&R won't fit any rifle barrel to a shotgun frame as you've noted.

Tim

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm#pressure

[WyrTwister]

Cast bullets will shoot real well in either a Handi or BC 45-70, they just need to be sized properly for the bore, slug the bore with a #8 soft lead egg sinker and choose a cast bullet .001"-.002" larger than the groove to groove depth and it will perform well. I shoot .459" cast bullets in my 45-70s Handis and 45-120 BC, they shoot acceptionally well. I've shot nice groups at 200yds with the 45-120 and 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers at about 1700fps.

     I seem to remember reading that is has something to do with the size of the throat ?  Too ?

     From what I have been able to figure out , there is very little downside to shooting big bullets , as long as it will still chamber and as long as you are not close to max load / pressure ?

     Lead is very forgiving at squeezing down to fit the barrel ?

     And .45-70 chambers are usually pretty generous in dimensions ?

God bless
Wyr

[quickdtoo]

The key to shooting cast bullets accurately is to shoot bullets the right size for the bore, particularly if their too small, slightly too big would be better that slightly too small. I like to use Beartooth cast bullets cuz they come in a variety of sizes, so you can get exactly what you need.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Typically, H&R 45-70 throats are on the short side, some are deep enough to load 350gr and bigger bullets, but for the most part, you'll need to run a throating reamer in it to load most bullets 350gr and bigger to recommend COL or longer. See my throating thread in the FAQs, I rented a reamer and did all 3 of mine.

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

[WyrTwister]

The key to shooting cast bullets accurately is to shoot bullets the right size for the bore, particularly if their too small, slightly too big would be better that slightly too small. I like to use Beartooth cast bullets cuz they come in a variety of sizes, so you can get exactly what you need.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Typically, H&R 45-70 throats are on the short side, some are deep enough to load 350gr and bigger bullets, but for the most part, you'll need to run a throating reamer in it to load most bullets 350gr and bigger to recommend COL or longer. See my throating thread in the FAQs, I rented a reamer and did all 3 of mine.

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

     I use several molds .  Most are Lee , because they are cheaper .  I do have 1 or 2 iron molds , Lyman , I think ( picked up used at reduced price ) .

     " Lightest " mold is somewhere in the mid 300 grain range .  Most are 405 grain .  My " big " ( .460" ) mold is a Lee which has a moderate hollow base .  This ends up casting a longer bullet .

     I am still experimenting with it , it seems to be less forgiving , getting it to cast flawless bullets , than the other molds .

     I did not realize the Handies had short throats in .45-70 ?  Many people that try to shoot bottle neck calibers for accuracy try to seat the bullet out , just shy of the rifleings .  Does that work well with the Handies ?

     My Marlin must have a long throat .  I have never had any trouble using 405 grain bullets , even the HB bullets .  But I have not tried any of the 500 grain bullets .

     When I first started casting / reloading for .45-70 , I bought a Lee sizer die .  It is about .457" .  Bad idea . 

     I did paper patch quite a few bullets with cigarette paper , to increase the diameter .  This helped .  This was part of the experimentation that lead me to the conclusion that I needed larger diameter bullets .

     I quit sizing the bullets & use Lee liquid lube on the un-patched bullets .  The paper patched bullets can bu lubed or un-lubed .   You can see the paper fly , a few feet past the muzzle .

     Do any of the Handi shooters use the sharp pointed cast bullets , Lee makes a mold .  No magazine tube full of loaded ammo on a Handy , to prevent sharp pointed bullets .

God bless
Wyr

[quickdtoo]

Most H&R/NEFs have longish throats, the 45-70 is an exception, it's the other way around. You'll be able to load some bullets to the recommended COL, just depends on the shape of the ogive. In other calibers, you most likely won't be able to reach the lands with the lighter for caliber bullets, but probably can with the heavier for caliber bullets.

Dodd3 shoots pointed cast bullets from a Lee mold in his BC, he figured a way to add a gas check to them even tho they aren't made for one.

Tim


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,96354.msg1098239465.html#msg1098239465

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,74036.msg456187.html#msg456187

[WyrTwister]

Most H&R/NEFs have longish throats, the 45-70 is an exception, it's the other way around. You'll be able to load some bullets to the recommended COL, just depends on the shape of the ogive. In other calibers, you most likely won't be able to reach the lands with the lighter for caliber bullets, but probably can with the heavier for caliber bullets.

Dodd3 shoots pointed cast bullets from a Lee mold in his BC, he figured a way to add a gas check to them even tho they aren't made for one.

Tim


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,96354.msg1098239465.html#msg1098239465

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,74036.msg456187.html#msg456187

     None of my .45-70 molds have the reduced diameter base for gas checks .

     I do gas check some of my .44 mag bullets .

God bless
Wyr