Author Topic: Percussion choices (Read 1952 times)

khd · « **on:** April 17, 2007, 03:21:09 PM »

I was at my local toy store, a.k.a. gun store the other day and a fellow was going on about how much he enjoyed hunting over most of his life time with a Hawken replica that he had built himself. He pulled an old photo from his wallet of himself (much younger), a dead bull 6x6 elk, and the Hawken .54 muzzleloader that he'd used to take his trophy. Anyway, after listening to him for a while I was almost convinced that I too should try muzzleloading. I'd considered muzzleloaders several years ago and actually owned to in-lines but never shot them. They were traded off on centerfires. I'm a trade-a-holic. Anyway, I've been cruising the net looking for traditional muzzleloaders and the selection has seemed to have decreased quite a bit since I looked a couple of years ago. Any recommendations for a first muzzleloader?

Thanks,
Kevin

offhand35 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2007, 04:14:17 PM »

If you peruse this forum, you may get the idea to look at the Lyman guns. They have a few models, in different calibers and configurations. The Great Plains Rifle [GPR], the Trade Rifle, and the Deerstalker carbine are all available in percussion, as ready-to-shoot and in kit form.

This all depends on your price range of course. The Lymans are Italian made factory guns, shoot very well, and are pretty reasonable.
Cabelas also has some traditionally configured ML's, the Hawkens are made by the same company as the Lyman guns [Investarms].

Welcome. If you take the time to work at muzzleloader shooting, you won't stop! I have some very jealous T/C Contenders, Rugers and Brownings!

Slamfire · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2007, 05:50:38 PM »

They are getting rare on the auction sites too, but there are still a few T/C Hawkens and Renegades available. You might try the Traditional rifle crowd at the Muzzleloader Forum. They trade rifles pretty regularly, and don't allow the word "inline".

sharps4590 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2007, 12:57:11 AM »

I, along with many others, highly recommend the Lyman Great Plains rifle in 54 caliber. I owned one for several years and took a few deer with it along with winning more than a few matches. Only reason I don't own it now as it got traded in an upgrade to a custom Hawken. The new rifle doesn't shoot any better than the Lyman but it's a dead ringer for a real Hwken. believe the GPR to be the best entry level muzzleloader out there and they're certainly the most historically correct of that level. Style and line are personal as is all taste but you'll be well served by the Lyman. Track of the Wolf has them for between $300.00 and $400.00 and I often hear that an outfit called Mid-South Shooters Supply has the best price on them.

Use only real black powder and a patched round ball and I believe you'll enjoy the rifle immensely. If you go with the GPR in 54 cal. you'll want some .530 balls, .015-.020 patching, only linen or cotton, no synthetics, period, and I'd start with Ffg GOEX or Scheutzen powder and I've always used CCI caps. Wonderlube is ok for your patch lube and is readily available but after a little while you'll probably switch lubes. It is only fair to warn you that shooting real muzzleloaders is terribly addictive. If you're bitten hard lots of changes will occur in your shooting life. Good luck!

Vic

khd · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2007, 05:08:53 AM »

Thanks for the replies!

Sharps4590...looks like Mid-South might be the folks to deal with....good prices. Thanks also for the loading info.

Offhand35...All three..the GPR, Trade Rifle, and the Deerstalker look cool. The Deerstalker especially appealed to me because of my love of carbines.

Slamfire...I like the fact that TC products are made here in the USA, but I may not want to pay as much as they seem to get for their stuff on an entry gun. I've paid too much for their Encores and Contenders and will probably do so some more

I forgot to mention that I'm a wussy these days. Recoil is getting the better of me lately. Don't know if it's age or caffeine. I'm leaning toward a .50 caliber, though I referenced the fellow that I met's .54 caliber. Based on the reading I've done it looks like you can do a lot regarding recoil with how you "feed" your rifle. Can you all equate the recoil of the .50 and .54s to any centerfire calibers and bullet weights? I'll give you an example of not fun for me these days....shooting a .45/70 Guide Gun with any loads or slugs out of any 12 ga..

Thanks again!
Kevin

Saloon slug · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:52:51 AM »

Black powder recoil is different then smokeless its more of a shove then the smack you get with smokeless. I consider myself a bit recoil shy and don't find 100 grns of powder with a PRB out of my .50cal to be all that bad. I imagine that with conicals the recoil energy will increase dramatically.

P.S. My winnie trapper in .45colt shooting 250grn cast bullets with 17 grns of 2400 belts you a great deal harder then my Renegade with the 100 grn charge.

Slamfire · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:01:06 PM »

I put a slip on Kick-eze on my Renegade .56 Smoothie, and haven't had any trouble with loads above 80 grains of FFg and a .550 PRB. The gun does jump around pretty quickly, but my poor ol' shoulder don't hardly feel it a'tall. I ought'a say here that I think a .270 kicks too hard.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2007, 01:35:40 AM »

As Saloon Slug said, black powder recoil is considerable different from smokeless recoil. 12 ga. slugs or a stout loaded 45-70 will have a much greater felt recoil than the 50 or 54 shooting a PRB, even if shooting heavy loads in either caliber.

As an example, last Sunday I fired 35-40 rounds from my 54 Jaeger, weight is 8 1/2 lbs, all from the bench. The charges were from 60 to 100 grs. of Ffg under a PRB and I never once felt beat on. Had that been the same number of rounds from my 45-90 Shiloh Sharps with it's 80 gr. charge and 480 gr. bullet the story would be different. Recoil from black powder can be heavy but you're going to have to go to quite a bit bigger caliber than 54 and a projectile other than PRB....or a very light rifle.

Vic

offhand35 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2007, 01:46:19 AM »

As to muzzle loader felt recoil, you could run the numbers through a computer program as to projectile weight [including powder charge], gun weight, and velocity, but the felt recoil number in ft-lbs that you come up with will NOT agree with an on site shoulder-to-shoulder comparison!

I had an 8.5 lb. Browning single shot in 30.06 that I did not like for the felt recoil......and 30.06 is a very popular caliber, but it was not for me.
I spent quite some time with my NEF Tracker II slug gun, porting the bbl, adding a mercury recoil reducer to the stock, and finding a tolerable load that would do the job out to 100yds......still about 6-10 rounds at the range pre-season are about all that I want to shoot comfortably even with that.....

All this is leading up to the fact that I can shoot my Lyman 54 cal Deerstalker with PRB and 100gr of 2F black powder all afternoon and still be happy with my shooting and my shoulder on the way home!

As sharps4590 said, if you get hooked on ML shooting, it WILL completely change your shooting life! My Browning shotguns and 7-30Waters/22LR Contender carbine are getting jealous and concerned for their future.......

khd · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2007, 04:45:35 PM »

Thanks for the very good examples and info on muzzleloader recoil. I'm now just agonizing over what gun to get. The agony is actually pretty enjoyable

Thanks again!
Kevin

Anduril · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2007, 08:47:05 AM »

Kevin,

Find that guy with the Hawken again and tell him what you have been tellin us.
I'll bet he will invite you to shoot his rifle. Maybe he knows other local muzzleloaders who will help you get started.
..

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2007, 05:10:04 AM »

Hey Kevin,
I got bit with the bug a short while back and ended up buying the Cabela's Sportized Hunting Hawken Carbine:

I am getting on in years and find it hard to hump a heavy or large rifle in the woods anymore. This carbine has a short 20" barrel and only weighs in at 6 and 1/2 lbs. It is the .54 cal. and the recoil is not bad at all. It comes with a recoil pad. But like the other fellas have stated, the recoil on a muzzleloader is more of a push then a smack. The only change I will make to this gun is remove the rear sight and replace it with a peep sight.

The only thing that I am not over joyed with is the twist rate. It has a 1 in 24" twist rate. This is a little fast and would be great for sabots, but I am not really interested in shooting them. I would like to stick to lead mini/conical bullets. I did think that the $399. price tag was a little high, but I love this gun. Oh yeah, I can always get an additional barrel with a slower twist ratge for shooting patch round balls (PRB). And I do plan on doing that.

I would suggest that you go to the range and shoot some of these guns if you can. If you belong to gun club post a note on your bulletin board asking for help and watch how quick you get a reply. We tend to be a good bunch of guys.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2007, 05:23:45 AM »

Kevin,
Check this site out: http://www.dnrsports.com/acatalog/D___R_Catalog_Lyman_Muzzleloaders_1529.html

It has some nice prices for both complete guns and kits. This place is supposed to be good site.

Larry

khd · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:10:15 AM »

Anduril and Lawful Larry,

Thank you both for the good info and suggestions. I haven't seen that fellow since, nor know any buddies that shoot muzzleloaders actively. I live in Austin, Texas. There is relatively little seasonal advantage to hunting with a muzzleloader around here that I know of. Many of the ranches around here are enrolled in special programs with the State to manage the deer herds, with no incentives to do this with muzzleloaders. There are a few draw hunts through the State that have restrictions only allowing muzzleloaders, shotguns, or archery.
Lawful Larry, my fingerprints can be found on all of the traditional or semi-traditional muzzleloaders at the Cabela's next door in Buda. I like their carbine a lot, but on Friday I went ahead and ordered a Lyman Deerstalker in .50 Friday from my favorite gun store, McBride's. They're charging me $269 and some change plus tax I'm sure. Dnrsports does seem to have the best on-line prices, but I've been dealing with the good folks at McBride's for quite a while and like working through a familiy owned business if the prices are reasonable.
Shooting ranges are getting pretty thin and overcrowded around Austin, but at the recommendations of some of my friends at McBride's, I'm going to see about joining the Austin Rifle Club. They have some blackpowder shooters there, so that is probably my best bet. When my gun comes in, or probably before, I'll be asking you good folks plenty of questions regarding shooting accessories and equipment. Thanks again!

Sincerely,
Kevin

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:55:28 AM »

Hey Kevin, welcome aboard and welcome to our muzzleloading family. Oh yeah, and good shooting.

Keep the questions coming.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2007, 10:59:50 AM »

Kevin, you will love the Deerstalker. I have been using one for the past 15 years and have taken many whitetails with it. I have shot everything from sabots to round balls, and have settled on a .495 round ball 15th pillow ticking patch pre lubed, and 80g of 2f Goex or Pyrodex RS. I love the sights but the front sight was a little wide for me, so I filed it down some, now it works great. Have fun.

khd · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2007, 03:52:15 PM »

Lawful Larry,
Thanks for the welcome!

Snowshoe,
Thanks for the encouragement and loading advice!

What kind of cleaning supplies do you all use? Does soap and hot water really get it done for you all? Can a bore be seasoned like the Bore Butter adds say?

Thanks!
Kevin

Slamfire · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2007, 06:45:10 PM »

Yes soap and water do get the job done, I prefer hot as it comes from the tap, and Murphy's oil soap. I don't think modern steel is seasonable, like the old time iron barrels.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2007, 12:19:53 PM »

I use hot water and Murphy's oil soap, then finish off with Ballistol.

khd · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2007, 03:39:27 PM »

What is Ballistol?

This is interesting. The old barrels were made of iron, not steel? What is the difference?

This will probably sound goofy, (maybe not as goofy as asking about the difference between steel and iron; I actually believe that iron is heat treated to create steel) but I just love love Jerimiah Johnson the movie. It is because of this movie that I am interested in traditional blackpowder muzzleloaders. Forgive any misspellings. I was too lazy to find my DVD. The narrator touted Hawken rifles. I was just thinking that back in those days, did they know to clean their guns after every outing? Without today's distractions, maybe they were more consciences about keeping their guns clean. I know that I have enjoyed the forgiveness of smokeless firearms regarding cleaning. Go to range. Shoot quickly. Get back to real life. Clean guns some night when wife and kids are asleep.

Kevin

Stan in SC · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2007, 05:12:37 PM »

I can clean my .54 TC New Englander in about 10 minutes using hot soapy water and oil.Cleaning a muzzle loader is not the bugaboo you might think it is.Once you get smitten by the black powder bug you'll never look at things the same way again.I wish you luck.You are going to really like it.

Stan

mykeal · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:45:22 AM »

Quote from: khd on April 24, 2007, 03:39:27 PM

What is Ballistol?

This is interesting. The old barrels were made of iron, not steel? What is the difference?

This will probably sound goofy, (maybe not as goofy as asking about the difference between steel and iron; I actually believe that iron is heat treated to create steel) but I just love love Jerimiah Johnson the movie. It is because of this movie that I am interested in traditional blackpowder muzzleloaders. Forgive any misspellings. I was too lazy to find my DVD. The narrator touted Hawken rifles. I was just thinking that back in those days, did they know to clean their guns after every outing? Without today's distractions, maybe they were more consciences about keeping their guns clean. I know that I have enjoyed the forgiveness of smokeless firearms regarding cleaning. Go to range. Shoot quickly. Get back to real life. Clean guns some night when wife and kids are asleep.

Kevin

Steel is made from iron by refining it to have a specific carbon content (between 1/2 and 1 1/2 percent), and to remove impurities. Depending on the alloy desired, other metals such as chromium and molybdenum may be added as well. The refining process involves heating the metal to a molten state (about 1600 deg C), causing the impurities to separate into slag and float on top. In the language of the industry this is called refining as opposed to heat treating - the latter process does not involve molten metal.

Guns were prized possessions, often the means to survival, and usually well maintained. Yes, they cleaned them often and well.

Ballistol is a modern gun cleaner and lubricant especially well suited to black powder weapons as it contains no petroleum distillates that can form deposits when in contact with black powder residue. It is available at most stores that sell shooting supplies.

khd · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2007, 03:58:47 PM »

Stan in SC and Mykeal,

Thanks for the tutorial on steel. Ten minute clean-up would be great! Stan in SC, you are not the first to allude to a possible paradigm shift or philosophical change awaiting me

Thanks,
Kevin

sharps4590 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:12:29 PM »

The Legend of Jerimiah Johnson was a heck of a good movie and I thoroughly enjoy it, even today. However, it is about 50% accurate.....as is most of Hollywood.....and that's giving Hollywood the benefit of the doubt!

The real name of the person portrayed by Robert Redford was John Johnston. He was a late comer to the fur trade. As late as 1850 by some accounts. More importantly, to me at least, is that the real John Johnston was a heck of a lot bigger and meaner than the milquetoast character portrayed by Redford. Johnston was a Civil War veteran and spent time as a town marshall in Montana after the war. He died and was buried in California and was subsequently disinterred and reburied at Old Trail Town in Cody, Wyoming, where he lays today.

There is a book available from Pioneer Press, of Dixie Gun Works, entitled "The Crow Killer"...The True Story of Liver Eatin' Johnson. Of late some or much of that book has come into question but I have not seen any irrefutable evidence that it isn't as true as White Eye Anderson told it. I believe there is much research to be done into Johnson. As with any persons from the fur trade it is very difficult to nail down absolute truths. As much information as there is available there is still an incredible amount that isn't known. Having said that, what we do know of Johnston is enough to make him one of the larger than life characters of the early west. To merely survive they all had to be tough!!!

Vic

Slamfire · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2007, 06:27:13 PM »

Ballistol is primarily food grade mineral oil. I don't know what else might have been added. It was invented in Germany between the World Wars.

mspaci · « **Reply #25 on:** April 27, 2007, 10:42:28 AM »

Try Kittery Post or a few other sited that sell used. I got a T/C Renegade in perfect condition last fall for $150. Mike

khd · « **Reply #26 on:** April 27, 2007, 04:40:43 PM »

mspaci,

How were they to deal with? I looked at their website. Prices seem very reasonable.

Thanks,
Kevin

khd · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:57:41 PM »

Still waiting on my muzzleloader to arrive. Bought a Savage 10FP .308, older carbine Model 700 .30-06, Encore .204, CZ .223, and my first AR to satisfy the trader's itch. Hope that you all have been enjoying some good shooting or trading!

Kevin