head space issue

[wtroger]

Hi everyone Its been a while since I posted I have a 45/70 Handi that had part of the pivot lug missing and I sent it in and 10 weeks later I got it back with A new barrel then I had problems with light firing pin strikes and i was suspicious of the head space well I got a set of gauges and sure enough the no-go will close with out any resistance and this is with the extractor still in the rifle.  I am sure if I send it in again they will rebarrel it but what are the odds of them doing it right. Is there anyway I can impress upon them That i would like it to be right.Or do I just forget it and shoot it as it is.

[quickdtoo]

If the extractor claw holds the case against the standing breech, the depth of the rim cut which determines headpace, won't make any difference. All 4 of my 45-70s have .006"-.009" headspace if measured without the ejector in place, but I've never seen a flattened primer from any of them even with hot loads.

Tim

[wtroger]

Ok Tim I trust your judgment. I will keep her as is. It does shoot good.

[safetysheriff]

while the Handi' may not have much in the way of extraction power, not having the camming ability of a bolt-action for example, it definitely has a mechanical advantage when it comes to closing up the action on a 'no-go' gauge.        i think that if you use a no-go gauge on a Handi' that you use it with the depth-gauge capability of a dial caliper to determine if the chambering was done properly.   or check it with the no-go gauge chambered and a 'straight-edge' run across the breech face of the barrel to see if it runs into any interference with the gauge.

i'd expect a properly-chambered Handi' to possibly flex the standing breech or the frame enough to take a no-go gauge if one closes the action with some serious effort/gumption.......   

just my two cents,

ss'   

[wtroger]

SafetySheriff,  this one closes on a no-go as easy as most close on a factory case. I have set the head space on many a rifle and even a couple falling blocks like  Martini Cadets. I still feel like there should be at least resistance to the closing and I prefer that they not close on a no-go. The only reason this one isn't going back is I feel like the odds are they won't get right again. and since I don't see any pressure signs I think I will leave well enough alone.

[quickdtoo]

If you measure the rim cut out, you'll probably see its up to about .074" deep, the rim of a 45-70 case is ~.065" thick, depending on the brand. Hopefully the extractor will hold the headspace to a minimum as an ejector does.

I thought about JB Welding a stop under the ejector post to trap the rim at zero head space, but since I've never seen a bad primer issue, I've not taken that step, but I think it would work with an extractor barrel also.

Tim

[wtroger]

Quick I called H & R and just asked them the question should the 45/70 Handi rifle close on a no-go gauge and the answer is "YES they will" They also said that is I felt uncomfortable then send it in and they would check it out. I now think they are using the extractor to hold things in place. I will just keep on shooting it. Thanks for everyones input. Iam going to make my own 7.69 X 39 using this frame and a stub.

[Mac11700]

Should it close on a SAMMI no-go gauge..well...it can...but it isn't the greatest way of telling for a break action...You can measure the release lever with it empty by compressing it enough to take all the slack out of it but not enough to engage the locking lug and getting a measurement from the top down lever to the frame..Then put your no-go gauge back in and take another measurement...It should be way less than your measurement with the chamber empty..Any and all measurements should be across the chamber end with a straight edge..and then measure your cases rim...not with the extractor/ejector engaging the rim..Use a little subtraction and you should have what your head space is...

The SAMMI spec's for a 45-70 rim is from .060" to .070" and the SAMMI rim spec's on the chamber run from a minimum of .070" to a maximum of .077" so theoretically one "could have" a real sloppy chamber and have .017" head space and get by with it...and technically still be within spec's..

Mac

[safetysheriff]

The SAMMI spec's for a 45-70 rim is from .060" to .070" and the SAMMI rim spec's on the chamber run from a minimum of .070" to a maximum of .077" so theoretically one "could have" a real sloppy chamber and have .017" head space and get by with it...and technically still be within spec's..

Mac

wt'

the 'sloppy chamber' is actually a combination of both the chambering done to the rifle and the SAAMI spec' for the brass.   it is not just a poorly-done chambering job.   you will want to keep that in mind if you ever use a reamer on a firearm.   

Mac's insight is correct, even if it seems surprising to have that much slop in a firearm.   and it's actually a potential condition in a number of other cartridges as well, including such hotrods as the .270 Win'.  BUT, it isn't derived from doing a poor chambering job ( as i've alreadly noted ) with poor regard for SAAMI spec's.   

best regards,

ss'   


   

[Mac11700]

The SAMMI spec's for a 45-70 rim is from .060" to .070" and the SAMMI rim spec's on the chamber run from a minimum of .070" to a maximum of .077" so theoretically one "could have" a real sloppy chamber and have .017" head space and get by with it...and technically still be within spec's..

Mac

wt'

the 'sloppy chamber' is actually a combination of both the chambering done to the rifle and the SAAMI spec' for the brass.   it is not just a poorly-done chambering job.   you will want to keep that in mind if you ever use a reamer on a firearm.   

Mac's insight is correct, even if it seems surprising to have that much slop in a firearm.   and it's actually a potential condition in a number of other cartridges as well, including such hotrods as the .270 Win'.  BUT, it isn't derived from doing a poor chambering job ( as i've alreadly noted ) with poor regard for SAAMI spec's.   

best regards,

ss'   


   

SS is partially correct with regards to the term " Sloppy "...each rifle will have different amounts of "Slop" to them..and that is the correct context of what I am describing...However...being able to verify when a rifle is out of "spec" and is on the opposite extreme side of these variances lends credence to the term "sloppy" and is a manufacturing condition that can be the cause to the original issue with this posters problem of light firing pin strikes...Every manufacturer has a set of values or spec's that the rifles chamber is suppose to stay within...How often these spec's are checked on a paticular run of barrels ie...1 in 5...1 in 10...1 in 20...1 in 50... will determine the success rate of each...by keeping out of spec'd barrels from being sold..Since this is a rimmed cartridge..the variances will always be there...since every cartridge manufactures rims thicknesses are different...but to rimless cartridges...that's a whole different ballgame...and the spec's should always be held to tighter tolerances...

In a perfect world...each rifle will be on the minimum spec'd side..and each gun would be fitted perfectly..and every cartridge would fit perfectly with in every chamber exactly the same...But we all know the world isn't a perfect place and there will always be variances on every rifle made...Producing a perfect rifle may be possible for other companies who are taking the time to ensure each rifle that they produce are held to minimum spec's..but for most mass produced guns..next to impossible to accomplish..Setting higher standards to ensure a better product is labor intensive...and will add to the cost of that rile significantly......The one good thing about our Handi's...is that the Customer Support staff that is there are some of the best to deal with when any problems do come up with them..and they will try their best to correct it and keep you happy...

If your still having light firing pin strikes with all different types of brass...I suggest you take NEF up on their offer and send it back in...and have them look at it and make any needed corrections..

Mac