Crimping with no crimp grove?

[JerryKo]

Can you use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp bullets without a crimp groove.  I do not mean bottle neck cases, I'm talking 454 straight wall cases.  Will it form enough of a crimp to do the job with jacketed bullets without the crimp grove?

The reason I ask,  I think the Hornady 250 gr SST ML bullet would make a fine topper for the 454 casull, but since it is made for the muzzle-loader sabot shooter it doesn't have a crimping grove.  I would like to experiment with this, but would like to see what you all think.  This looks like the same bullet they plan to use for the 450 bushmaster loading, except it will have a crimp groove and it is not offered as a component yet.  At least as far as I can tell.

[davem270win]

I use the Lee Crimp tool on the 45-70, and my understanding is that you don't have to crimp on the groove. you can crimp anywhere on the bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

I use the Barnes 400 SP at 2300 fps in my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (ok 45-70). These bullets do not have a crimp groove. Recoil is substantial so I crimp the case mouth into the bullet with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It works well. Give it a try.

Larry Gibson

[JerryKo]

OK, that is still a different type of factory crimper.  The one LEE sells for 454 casull is not the open topped version.  It is one like you would get for 44 mag.  It puts a roll crimp instead of the circular pinch type that the 45-70 gets.  Or am I totally confused about the operation of this Lee FC  die?

I checked with Hornady.  The 450 Bushmaster uses a different type of bullet.  I was told in addition of the crimping groove the base is thicker and it has the flex tip.  And no,... It will not be offered as a component as of yet.  Shucks!  I asked a bit about the jacket on the SST ML, and they said it is not a thick jacket, but I think muzzle-loader speeds and 454 cas speeds should be close.  The pressure is what is concerning me, at this point.  Now there is a big difference.  If I decide to go forward it will be with XMP-5744, to get some lower pressures.  What good is a separated jacket?

[Lloyd Smale]

I do it all the time in my 444 and my 41 special single six and my old model conversion to 41 mag. Most of the bullets that shoot well in these guns are to long.

[JerryKo]

I tried crimping some dummy bullets this morning, and it does put a nice crimp on.  I wouldn't know if they would hold up to recoil.  Probably because hardly any powder will fit in the case after seating those long bullets.  It seems they may be too long for any good to come from the load.

Hornady also makes a factory 460 load that uses a 200 grain SST w/cannulure.  Again it is not offered as a component.

Thanks for the help guys, but I"m about to deep six this project.

If anybody finds a streamlined loading for 454 casull, give it a posting.  Thanks!

[Old Syko]

When you say "crimp groove" are you referring to the cannelure?  If so the cannelure has little to do with the crimp.  It is there more as a part of the construction of some particular bullets.  Or are you talking about the smooth tapered groove on some bullets designed for a roll crimp for a specific round?  Usually the grooves or cannelures in a bullet don't mean much when it comes to crimping.

[JerryKo]

Thanks, OS,

Yes I guess for the jacketed bullets I was referring to the cannelure.  I have noticed that for all of the factory rounds I have bought they have always been crimped into the cannelure.  I just thought that they are placed on the bullet to insure a firm crimp in a specific area for a good overall depth.