Author Topic: More accurate in sniper setup, Enfield Mk. 4 or Mauser 98? (Read 2141 times)

His lordship. · « **on:** April 28, 2007, 06:04:03 AM »

I was talking with some buddies last night and they asked me which was more accurate in WW 2, the British Enfield Mk. 4, the Mk. 1 (Australia used it), or the German Mauser, in the sniper setup. This would be with the usual factory checks, with the scope attached.

I honestly could not say which, but gave my nod to the Mauser as it has a one piece stock, and is more popular with hunters. I used to own a 1948 made Mk. 4 Enfield that could shoot some really great groups, and lots of Mausers over the years.

Anyone have any info on which was the better sniper rifle?

Thanks.

S.S. · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:43:53 PM »

If I remember correctly, The British T3 was Barreled by Holland and Holland.
It was not a Standard #4. Accuracy was phenomenal.. It was considered the best Sniper Rifle of WWII Hands Down. It was designed to be a Sniper Rifle from the start,
not a field expedient modification used by most other countries.

KYBOY · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2007, 03:07:52 PM »

I remember reading a article in a G&A several years ago and it addressed this very subject. In their tests the Springfield won out. Of course that's with the specific rifles they used. All rifles are different, I have a bone stock garand that will shoot 3/4" all day with good loads. Then Ive shot some that wouldn't do 3 MOA. Id say a true mark 4 sniper set up would be on the norm more accurate than the 98 set up.

S.S. · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2007, 05:38:49 AM »

Being an American, I would love to say that I thought it was an American weapon,
But that just was not the case. An O3 was never a match for a T3 in firepower or accuracy. The T3 used in the tests was probably about wore out.. Thus not as accurate.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:03:34 AM »

It would been interesting to hear about the ammunition provided to snipers from England, Germany, and Russia during WWII.

KYBOY · « **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:18:51 AM »

I know the 03 wasn't, that's why I mentioned the individual rifle.

S.S. · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:58:53 AM »

The Garand was a major problem in the Sniper role because the
spinning ejected case gave away the snipers position. German and especially Japanese
machine gunners would look for the shiny spinning case as the sunlight reflected off of it.
A trained Sniper will even today slowly bolt out the expended case to keep it
from being thrown spinning by the ejector.

Mikey · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2007, 02:20:12 AM »

I believe the T3 was the most accurate as it was designed as a sniper rifle from the start and used premium barrels. I understand teh Mauser snipers were just issued 98s that showed good accuracy and were scoped. I'm not sure about the Moisons the Russians used but I think I recall reading they too were socped as the Mausers were.

I could be wrong. Mikey.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:04:17 PM »

S.S.

Probably a good thing them North Vietnamese were as slick as them Germans and Japs. Otherwise the most successful sniper during the Vietnam war wouldn't have been very successful with his brass flinging XM21 eh? Also I thought it was the en bloc clip "pinging" out that gave all the GIs with M1s away........

Larry Gibson

fastbike · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2007, 05:50:03 AM »

I have read accounts from German and Russian snipers that they would get ammo from the machine gunners when they could. The machine gun ammo was loaded hotter than the normal rifle ammo and they could get up to an extra 150 meters.

Quote from: Siskiyou on April 29, 2007, 07:03:34 AM

It would been interesting to hear about the ammunition provided to snipers from England, Germany, and Russia during WWII.

S.S. · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2007, 12:57:26 PM »

Pretty sure Hathcock used a bolt action in Nam ?
Who are you referencing ?
I think he did use a 91/30 Nagant on one occasion but still a
turnbolt.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #11 on:** May 04, 2007, 01:40:28 PM »

As I recall Hathcock used a Winchester M70 30-06 and National Match ammo.

S.S. · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2007, 10:37:14 AM »

He did use a Model 70 and Chuck Mawhinney used one too.
As far as I can remember, they were the top two snipers of the Viet Nam war
from the Marines.. A.Waldron was Army, And I think he surpassed Hathcock and
Mawhinny But I am not sure if All of his kills were confirmed. If they were, it was 109.
I do believe he did use an M21 late in his tour, but not for many of his kills.

KYBOY · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2007, 04:39:26 PM »

Hathcocks was 93 confirmed and many,many(upwards of 200 supposedly) more that were not confirmed according to several publications.
I dont the truth of it.
Heres a good list of snipers and kills.
http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:10:40 PM »

It would have been interesting if the Swiss had ever went to war to see what they would have done in the sniper business since they had an extremely accurate rifle that was the norm not the exception and a nation of shooters who shoot a lot. I think that is one reason they never got attacked that and the mountainous region that is a good part of their country.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:20:31 AM »

Waldron had 109 confirmed in about 6 months with the 9th Infantry in '68-'69. He used an M21 system for all of them. He also had many probable kills. He was awarded 2 DSCs for his bravery and service in that time. He is the top American sniper of the Vietnam War.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:29:50 AM »

Quote from: S.S. on May 04, 2007, 12:57:26 PM

Pretty sure Hathcock used a bolt action in Nam ?
Who are you referencing ?
I think he did use a 91/30 Nagant on one occasion but still a
turnbolt.

I was referencing your "The Garand was a major problem in the Sniper role because the
spinning ejected case gave away the snipers position." becuase SGT Aldelbert Waldron, the most successful U.S sniper in Vietnam, used the XM21 which ejects it's case the same way the M1 does.

Larry Gibson

From Sharpening the Combat Edge by former 9th Infantry Division Commander LTG Julian J. Ewell:

"As an interesting war story, our most successful sniper was Sergeant Adelbert F. Waldron, III, who had 109 confirmed kills to his credit. One afternoon he was riding along the Mekong River on a Tango boat when an enemy sniper on shore pecked away at the boat. While everyone else on board strained to find the antagonist, who was firing from the shoreline over 900 meters away, Sergeant Waldron took up his sniper rifle and picked off the Viet Cong out of the top of a coconut tree with one shot (this from a moving platform). Such was the capability of our best sniper. We had others, too, with his matchless vision and expert marksmanship. Sergeant Waldron earned two Distinguished Service Crosses for his outstanding skill and bravery."

Here's both of Waldron's Distinguished Service Cross Citations:

WALDRON, ADELBERT F.
(First Award)
Sergeant, U.S. Army
Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division
Date of Action: January 16 - February 4, 1969
Synopsis:
The Distinguished Service Cross is presented to Adelbert F. Waldron, Sergeant, U.S. Army, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division. Sergeant Waldron distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous actions during the period 16 January 1969 to 4 February 1969. His extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
HQ US Army, Vietnam, General Orders No. 1068 (1969)
Other Award: Distinguished Service Cross w/OLC (Vietnam)

WALDRON, ADELBERT F.
(Second Award)
Sergeant, U.S. Army
Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division
Date of Action: February 5 - March 29, 1969
Synopsis:
The Distinguished Service Cross (First Oak Leaf Cluster) is presented to Adelbert F. Waldron, Sergeant, U.S. Army, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division. Sergeant Waldron distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous actions during the period 5 February 1969 to 29 March 1969. His extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
HQ US Army, Vietnam, General Orders No. 2904 (1969)
Other Award: Distinguished Service Cross (Vietnam)

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #17 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:44:00 AM »

Chris D.

I have shot several original M98 snipers and two Mk 4 Enfield snipers with issue ammo and with quality reloads. Frankly both were about equal in accuracy shooting 2-3 MOA with several different types of issue ammo and both right at MOA with quality reloads. I did find the 4X Zeiss scope on one of the M98s to be the best scope. The Enfield stocks had the add on cheek piece which made them more ergonomic and comfortable to shoot initially. An add on cheek piece was used on the M98s similar to what is pictured in Senich's book. This made the M98 more comfortable with their really high mounts. The better external ballistics of the 8mm cartridge (was loaded with heavier bullets to higher velocity than possible in the SMLE action) gave it the range advantage but considering most sniper kills were in the 2-600 meter range it wasn't that great of an advantage. I'll take either one if you want to give one away?

Larry Gibson

benchracer · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2007, 05:46:19 AM »

Has anyone considered some of the Finnish rifles? The Finns used Mosin-Nagants that were rebarrelled with .308 dia barrels with great effectiveness against the Russians in the "Winter War". I understand that the Finns also used quite a number of Swedish 6.5's that were on loan to them. Given the Finnish reputation for excellent marksmanship and fieldcraft, as well as their reputation for producing fine rifles, I am willing to bet that some of their arms would provide pretty stiff competition for the more well known arms of the period.

His lordship. · « **Reply #19 on:** May 13, 2007, 09:16:52 AM »

After reading the list of snipers in the Korean War on the "Sniper" website I noticed that they did not mention an Australian who shot numerous Chinese soldiers. There was an article in the American Rifleman about that.

The Chinese were in a big bunker and the Australian was able to see them walking down a step, took aim, shot, they kept on coming, and the Chinese did not know what was happening. After the bunker was taken, the Australian sniper was sickened by all the dead bodies who had gotten shot by him with his Enfield.

S.S. · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:55:16 PM »

The Finn rifles were modifications/rebuilds of existing weapons for the most part.
They were renowned for their courage though. They used a SMG called the Suomi (sp)
and would ski through Russian troop formations at pretty high speed and literally cut
them to pieces with those fast firing weapons. One soldier apparently killed over 500
Russians single handed. They were some tough fellows.

tnekkc · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2007, 08:03:51 AM »

I have Garands, Enfields, Mausers, M16s, 91/30s, K31s, and lots of other military rifles.

I can show you examples of each that shoot well and those that do not.

A 98 Masuer with the hump removed, trigger improved, M70 safety, thumb cut welded up, bolt welded, scope mounted, re barrelled, and re stocked is the best rifle money can buy.

New rifles made that way cost thousands of dollars, but I can sporterize military surplus Mausers for myself.