Author Topic: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?  (Read 1204 times)

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Offline PeterCartwright

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Help me out, guys!  I've got a bunch of once fired brass for two rifles with "belted" cartridges.  As I understand it, brass lasts longer and uniformity is easier if dies are adjusted to headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt.

What's the process for that kind of adjustment?  (Or, alternatively, is there a thread where this is already explained?)

Thanks!

Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2007, 10:48:24 AM »
You could try neck sizing. This would require keeping the brass separated,assuming they're the same caliber. Even when I was neck sizing, I'd full-length them at least every 2 or 3 reloads.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 11:35:11 AM »
Real simple, form a false shoulder on the case then neck size just enough to set headspace to a minimum, I did exactly that for my Encore Prohunter barrel that had way too much headspace with factory brass. Excess shoulder space is a killer of belted mag brass, the simple solution is don't use the belt for setting headspace.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,107088.msg1098309995.html#msg1098309995
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Offline PeterCartwright

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 12:09:04 PM »
So Tim, if I'm following your toutorial, I could run my .338 case necks over the expander in a .35 Whelen die and finish the process as you describe with my .338 die?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 12:14:14 PM »
Yes, I used a .308" expander to form false shoulders on my .280 Improved brass, so the 35W should work for the .338, I'd certainly give it a try. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2007, 12:44:56 PM »
Quote
So Tim, if I'm following your toutorial, I could run my .338 case necks over the expander in a .35 Whelen die and finish the process as you describe with my .338 die?

  Why go through all that when you don't have to???  Also 99% of the time it leaves the brass with uneven neck thickness...

   Now, blacken the neck and shoulder of a fired case from your rifle with a felt tip marker, and then back off your die one full turn...

  Lube and size your case with your fl size die...  Now look at how much of the neck you have sized and try the case in your gun...  You want to size that case so you feel a "slight" resistance when closeing the action on it...

  Firing the round sized that way, will leave the case head spaced on the shoulder...

  DM

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 12:52:24 PM »
Even once fired belted mag brass can be stretched badly depending on chamber specs, the false shoulder is done on new brass to give it more life from the get go. ;)

Tim

Quote
Headspace problems are much more common with belted magnum calibers.   This is because ammunition manufacturers always make their belted magnum calibers to headspace on the belt.   They also leave the shoulder extremely far from contacting the chamber.   This causes the first firing of belted cases to stretch quite badly.  Your "once fired" case is now stretched considerably and it is weakened at the expansion ring.   The good news is that further case damage can be kept to a minimum when handloading belted magnums by setting headspace on the shoulder, just as you would for any rimless caliber.


http://www.larrywillis.com/headspace.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline PeterCartwright

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 02:19:45 PM »
Thanks Tim.  I'll give it a shot.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 03:37:37 PM »
Quote
Even once fired belted mag brass can be stretched badly depending on chamber specs, the false shoulder is done on new brass to give it more life from the get go.

  I say your working your brass, necking it waaay up and then back down much more than firing a belted mag round in a factory chamber would do...

  I've hand loaded more than 100,000 rounds and my expierence has proven this to me many times...  I've never had a problem with belted brass stretching too much on one fireing, and if it does happen it would be rare or something is wrong with that chamber or that brass to begin with.

  I don't care how you do it, but your making unnecessary extra work for yourself and over working your brass...

  DM

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 05:33:46 PM »
 Peter, What will you be using for a rifle? I ask because. A encore will stretch the brass much more than a front lug type bolt action. If firing from a bolt action with front locking lugs I would neck size my brass and keep it with the rifle that it was fired in. Done this way the brass should last you quite awhile, depending on how hot your loads are. Case life in a springier action will always be poor in high pressure rounds.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Lone Star

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2007, 03:10:06 PM »
Quote
I've hand loaded more than 100,000 rounds and my expierence has proven this to me many times...  I've never had a problem with belted brass stretching too much on one fireing, and if it does happen it would be rare or something is wrong with that chamber or that brass to begin with.
You're right, none of us know what the heck we are doing.  Thanks for the helpful insight!





j/k.  Maybe you have loaded 100K rounds, maybe not - but the fact remains that many belted chambers are cut too deep and new cases will stretch at the web on the first firing, particularly in non-controlled-round feed rifles.  Too many shooters have seen it, and the problem has been noted in reputable loading manuals over the years.   

What I do is seat bullets out into firm contact with the rifling for the first firing.  This too is somewhat controversial, but it does work and it does not overwork the neck.  I guess it boils down to what each shooter feels comfortable with, and how deep his reloading experience is.

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Offline PeterCartwright

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2007, 04:28:27 PM »
Billy:  I'm playing with a Howa 1500.  I restocked this rifle last year and had some bedding challenges. I'd run to the range over lunch, fire three to six rounds, examine the target and then go home to problem solve.  I finally full length bedded the Howa in a Boyd's laminated JRS stock.  Curiously, this rifle seems to prefer full length bedding to free floating.  Go figure.

After gathering up all my empties from various places (once fired), I realized I must have upwards of 150 rounds of brass.  I've run them through the "Sidewinder" and wiped them down.  Now I'm ready to work.

I think (since these have already been fired once and presumably conform to my chamber) that I'll try neck sizing on a few rounds first to see how that works.  (I take Tim's point that establishing a false shoulder before the first firing would prevent that first stretch, but the horse is already out of the barn with the brass I have).  The three rounds I've prepared all drop into the chamber with just a tiny bit of bolt hesitation on the end of the cam stroke.  Feels right.  We'll see.

The best group I got last year was 1 and 1/8th inches center to center, 3 shot group @ 100 yards using H4831 and 250 gr. Nosler partitions.  The relatively heavy Boyd's laminate stock matched with a Sorbothane (sp?) butt pad really civilizes this .338.  I don't mind getting pushed around a bit, but I'm not into pain.


Offline billy_56081

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2007, 04:42:52 PM »
I think using neck sized cases will shrink your groups. But 1 and 1/8th inch groups fired out of a magnum  is pretty darn good. I know my heavier caliber guns are capable of groups better than I can hold em. Good luck and happy shooting.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 04:57:10 PM »
FWIW, my .375H&H Encore Prohunter barrel, using the false shoulder method of minimizing shoulder and head space, shot a .708" 3-shot 100yd group with the 270gr Hornady with a near max load of N160 on it's maiden trip to the range. I was impressed to say the least, specially considering it had .006"-.007" head space with new rem brass before I touched it.  :-\ That's .003" frame to barrel gap and another .003-.004" head space, pretty poor for a new barrel, but not uncommon from what I've read of other's experience with their Encores. The couple, very easy, extra steps in brass prep are well worth it IMO. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline PeterCartwright

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2007, 01:27:27 AM »
Thanks guys.  I'll probably try both ways and see what works best in this rifle.  Wow Tim!  That .375 sounds like a great shooter!  Yeah, Billy, if I was consistently getting 1 and 1/8" groups, I'd be ecstatic.  Unfortunately, consistency has been the bane of this project.  If I can average sub 2" groups, I'll be satisfied.  (But I really think I have a right to expect at least 1 and 1/2" groups consistently.)  I'll report back on my progress.

Oh, one more thing:  I recently picked up a Stoney Point OAL gauge.  I've seated my three test rounds (Hornady 250 gr. spire points) about .020" off the lands.  Hopefully between the fire-formed/chamber dimension brass and a more optimum bullet to land fit, I'll see some improvement.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2007, 03:54:04 AM »
Quote
You're right, none of us know what the heck we are doing.  Thanks for the helpful insight!

  Hey lone star,

  You don't have to get your panties in a knot, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and i was only pointing out an
"easier way", that has been working for me since i started reloading in the 60's.

  By the 70's i had an ammo mfg license and was loading a lot of ammo, including with bonded core bullets i designed and loaded in cartridges that i also designed for "break open" guns...  I sold quite a bit of ammo for those alone...

  I can "safely" say i've easily loaded over 100,000 rounds to date and i'm not dead yet, so there will be more to come.  I do believe if the problem you describe is so serious, i would have run onto it a time or two by now...

  DM

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2007, 05:42:46 AM »
"What I do is seat bullets out into firm contact with the rifling for the first firing.  This too is somewhat controversial, but it does work and it does not overwork the neck."

Works for me, too.  My first load with a new belted case is a light one.  All my target loads for belted magnums are pretty light and cases last a long time.  Once a year i load up 10 rounds of high velocity stuff for deer.     

Offline Lone Star

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Re: Adjusting dies so belted cartridges headspace on the shoulder?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2007, 04:43:23 PM »
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  Hey lone star,  You don't have to get your panties in a knot...

I didn't, but apparently you do not understand Interspeak.   I clearly stated I was just kidding (j/k), then made the serious portion of my post.   Sorry if I offended you.

.