Author Topic: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?  (Read 2655 times)

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Offline BattleRifleG3

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The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« on: March 08, 2007, 03:34:51 AM »
This may have some spill-over into the "exotic weapons" category, but this is aimed at designing a rifle that is equally suited to hunting as to a wide range of defensive uses that would be served by a rifle (vs a pistol or shotgun).

No, I don't mean the "omnipotent rifle", nor the biggest round, nor the fastest firing, nor the least recoil. So no Barret M82A1 with a Beta-C mag unless you really mean you would make that your primary rifle for hunting and homeland defense.

The word "utimate" has a slant towards meaning "final", in the sense of being the final word. So I'm looking for you to describe a rifle that would be well rounded enough to cover the widest range of uses.  Say you couldn't afford to keep all your rifles, but could afford one really good one.  Or say you had to go on an expedition that could face you with terrorists and tigers alike, and with handgun and shotgun needs being completely independent, you had to pick one rifle with one chambering, even if you carried different types of ammo for it.

You could say this is the "if you could only take one rifle" subject, but the key here is that it doesn't have to exist already. Combine the best features of everything you like into something you would realistically want and could be realistically made.

Or to look at it another way, what type of rifle would best cover all of your primary uses, and everything you buy afterwards would be specializing? If you could design your "core" rifle, what would it be?

I'll give my idea in a separate response.
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Offline Rick Teal

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 04:11:02 AM »
I would like something with the basic action of an SKS without all of the military BS with an easily adjustable gas valve and a detachable magazine, chambered in .250 Savage.
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 08:23:15 AM »
I'm kind of with Rick on this.  Something like an SKS with a nice sporter stock, the gas valve, a GOOD trigger, the detchable mag doesn't matter to me that much.  I'd go with the .300 Savage myself, I like the heavier bullets for bigger game.  Back in it's day, it was considered a good elk/bear round with 180 grain bullets.  It would probably fit in the SKS with a little tinkering, and with loads from 125 gr to 180 grain, I'd be covered for any hunting/shooting I'd do out to 300 yds.

I like the SKS platform, much better than an AK.  One piece stock, more comfortable to me to shoot than an AK, and the reliability is the same or better.  Take an SKS, through it in the river, leave it there for a month, 9 times out of 10, it's still going to fire when you pick it out of the water.  You aren' t going to do that with an AR-15 (sorry guys, I like them ok, but we are talking one gun only, and the AR design needs too much maintenance.)

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 03:49:26 AM »
I think a lot of people would agree on a mid caliber (25-27) semi-auto.  Actually, an SKS in 250 isn't as tall an order as one might think.

For me, I have to fall back on the 30-06.  Here's my "ultimate rifle":

First off, although my state prohibits the use of semi-auto rifles for hunting, I would want my ultimate rifle to be semi-auto. A reliable semi-auto is more consistent in reloading than a human operating a bolt, since the speed would vary no matter what.

Second, while many excellent and reliable semi-autos are made with stamped parts, this one should be machined. If I were trying to produce this rifle for profit I would consider a stamped receiver, but the best machine design optimization requires regulating every dimension, keeping material where it's needed and removing it where it isn't. In other words, you can sometimes get the best rifle for your money with a stamped receiver. But the idea here is to get the best rifle period. My idea of a receiver for this type of rifle would be a two part receiver. The upper would be steel with machined rails and the barrel screwing in at the front. The lower would be aluminum with the magazine well and trigger group. It might look like an AR style at first, but the lower would also serve the same purpose as an SKS dust cover, namely keeping the bolt and carrier inside.

The cartridge I would choose - 30-06. Almost every army in the world adopted a cartridge with similar ballistics to this one at the beginning of the 20th century. In the mid century, a certain load for it was almost matched with the shorter 308. But the whole range of loads available for the 30-06 cover a much wider range of performance. Reduced recoil loads with 125gr bullets are common, heavy 220gr hunting loads are too, mid range loads of 150gr and 180gr bullets are omnipresent, and then there's Hornady's light magnum, which should not be used in any current semi-automatic. Military ammo is still out there, and now that 7.62x51mm NATO has jumped in price, 30-06 is almost equivalent economically. Never mind that you can reload a good bit of the 30-06 brass out there.

One thing this rifle would absolutely need is an adjustable gas system. No question about it. With clear settings for reduced recoil, military, sporting, and light magnum loads.

With adequate machining, this rifle could feasibly be no heavier than the sporting semi-autos by Remington, Browning/Winchester, and Benelli. I could very easily, however, tolerate a modest increase in weight. If possible, it shouldn't be too much towards the front of the rifle. I'm thinking 10lb max, or perhaps that much fully loaded.

For a magazine, BAR mags would be the standard. However, smaller mags would be useful when you wanted something more compact or flush with the receiver. So fresh 5-10rd mags with the BAR latch pattern would come wiith the rifle.

I'm very torn between having an open top to the receiver, like the SKS and M1 Garand, and having it closed like practically all rifles that load from a detachable mag. I would like to be able to load the rifle from the top, especially in a hunting or other sharpshooting situation. But the strength advantages of a closed top receiver are significant, both for safety and for the rigidness of optics. With an open top receiver, I'd be inclined to use a scout type mount, but I don't have much experience with that setup myself.

Another thing I'm torn over is having the piston above or below the barrel. Above would be sleeker and more modern, but below would have its advantages. Above would be like an FN-49, below would be like an M1 Garand. A piston below the barrel would allow for an AK-type long stroke gas system, which is my preference, and allow for an open top receiver. A piston above the barrel would either have to be short stroke, like the SKS and FAL, or if long stroke it would cover the top of the magazine and require a closed receiver.

The bolt would be something we don't see much of - a four lug bolt with 45 degree rotation. To me it seems an obvious choice. But no, everyone instead uses a 2 lug, 3 lug, or many lug design. The four lug bolt would allow it to ride in the receiver on two lugs like an AK bolt, have a 45 degree lockup like the AK bolt, and have superior strength. I'm torn between a fixed ejector and a button ejector, but I'm pretty sure a lever-claw extractor is what I'd want there.

For a stock on a do-everything rifle, I wouldn't want a protruding pistol grip, instead I'd want a classic stock with a more vertical grip than usually found on a sporting rifle. If it had an underbarrel gas system, it would have to have a full length stock, in which case the main external distiction between it and the M1, besides the trademark receiver profile, would be the detachable magazine.

If I really wanted a p-grip stock I could have an additional one, and with no springs in the buttstock there would be nothing preventing you from making a folding stock, vs the AR which has the buffer tube in the buttstock.
I'm not sure about the sites. A maximum site radius would be great, from the rear of the receiver to the muzzle, but I like the profile of having the front site on the gas block, like the FAL. The muzzle could be threaded for a common muzzle attachment, and you could keep a variety available. They could include a muzzle brake for minimizing recoil, a flash hider when you cared less about recoil than muzzle flash, and then varieties of each. Even a suppressor if you decided to go NFA.

So would any of you want something like this? Or what would your "ultimate rifle" look like?
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Offline targshooter

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 08:54:21 AM »
My first optional selection is the cartridge. I would go with the .260 Remington. Low recoil, yet powerful enough to hit with authority. Adequate for any NA game other than the big bears and certainly capable of one shot disabling hits in military scenarios.
The rifle:
1] Will be semi-automatic and weigh at most 8lbs loaded and 9 lbs with a 2 power scope mounted.
2] Have the FN-FAL action scaled down for weight reduction, with modification such that the stock is a traditional type with no pistol grip.
3] Have an 18.5 inch barrel with a small fllash suppressor, no bayonet lug or carrying handle required.
4] Haver simple rear sight as on the new Ruger Mini-14/5 rifles.
5] Have a receiver scope mounting system integral to the receiver.
6] The center of gravity be such that it is balanced well for carry and snap shots at moving targets, much as the Ruger 77 International is.
Tall order, but that is my ultimate rifle.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 12:25:24 PM »
I wouldn't call that a tall order at all.  Technologically it's sounding a bit like an FN-49.  So you could say the FN-49's styling and the FAL's action length.  I wonder if it would be all that hard to design a non p-grip rear end for a FAL.  It would need a new trigger group or a Saiga type trigger linkage, but that wouldn't be too tall of an order.  I'm sure a custom rig for a rear site could be set up.  For a scope mount, there are receiver cover rails, but I suppose that doesn't count.  Perhaps a scout mount?

I'm pretty sure that could be doen based on the FAL, only possible limitation being weight.  I'm sure with some lightening machining it could be brought down to where you want it.
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Offline jpm

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2007, 12:44:38 PM »
 ;  Marlin 94,357.  I sneak up on em!

Offline McLernon

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2007, 10:04:18 AM »
The 45-70 Marlin XLR. It will take anything in North America(except maybe Polar Bears and big Kodiaks) and it can be loaded down for deer. Even with the heaviest lever gun loads recoil is not a problem. And it is widely available in several actions. The 45-70 is a really versatile cartridge.

Mc

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2007, 11:21:13 AM »
Brother, with the right bullets, the 45-70 will take anything on Earth.  Just ask Vince Lupo, he's taken the Big 5 in Africa with the 45-70 at least one time, I think that he's working on a second round now.

Offline kid_couteau

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2007, 11:31:05 AM »
Hi All

They would have to change some laws first or I would have to do a lot of paper work to get this.  But since we are fantasizing lets say it is ok to do this.

Now I dont know how I would do this but I like the idea

An over under in the following configuration:

.223 Remington over 12 gauge

The 223 would be a bolt action holding five rounds with internal mag.  The 12 gauge would be a single shot.  Maybe with a slide forward receiver like a grenade launcher but more streamlined and sleek with a button or fold down trigger to fire it.

Barrels would be about 14" long and stock would be an AR collapsible type

Iron peep sights with scope mount.

I figure I can hunt anything I need to with this and the bolt action is an easier action to make work with the shotgun barrel.  Also I wont need to chase brass.

Later
Kid


Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2007, 12:03:40 PM »
They make a pump action gun similar to this, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it's called.  The .223 feed from AR mags, I think that the 12 ga shotgun feeds from a tube.  I know I have a magazine somewhere that talks about it.  Oh, wait, it's called the Crossfire Combo Gun I think.  It's got a scope rail too, you can get it in camo or black.  I'll have to try to find the magazine....

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2007, 08:00:10 AM »
I was thinking that too.  Yes, it feeds 223 from AR mags and 12ga from a tube mag, I think.  Pump action for both.

I wouldn't mind a shotgun under a rifle barrel, but the only think keeping your idea away from reality would be the NFA barrel lengths.  I'd be happy going up to non-NFA lengths.

Hey, if it's a break action anyway, why not make it a double barrel?  18" double on the bottom, high velocity bolt action rifle on the top.
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Offline McLernon

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2007, 07:29:54 PM »
Honestly I don't think there is any such thing as 'The Ultimate Rifle'. Better to have one of each,

Mc ;D

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2007, 09:33:07 AM »
I think everyone has an idea of one rifle that would serve not all but as many needs as possible.  People have different priorities so the resulting rifle would be different.  That's what I'm hoping to see here, people's ideas of what would serve the widest range of purposes that matter to them.
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Offline Bigfoot

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2007, 06:15:03 PM »
Kel-tecs new .308 bullpup with the 24" barrel. It weighs over 8 lbs so I'd have that heavy barrel cut down and carbon wrapped to bring the weight down. Uses FAL mags. Should be the ultimate woods hunting and home defense gun. Powerful enough for deer and elk.

I like the mid bore ideas too. How about the Kel-tec SU-16 chambered in 6.5 Grendel? Possibly build a bullpup stock for it. Should weigh under 6 lb scoped and perform like a 250 Savage. The Grendel AR mags already fit it.

Kel-tec says they are working on a Grendel version of their bullpup, I hope it's light like their SU-16 is.

I don't have a thing for Kel-tecs, in fact I didn't use to like them. But I've done a bit of research and I really like the SU-16s light weight and the .308 bullpups power and compact size.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2007, 06:47:15 AM »
I'm not as interested in the compact bullpups as I am in the ones that put an enormous barrel into a manageable package.  If I got a Kel Tec bullpup, which I may, I would get the 32" one.  I have a feeling it would be on the heavy side, and I wouldn't pick it as my ultimate, but it sure does cover a lot of bases and I can see why many people would consider it their ultimate.

Hearing that they're doing a Grendel version perks my interest.
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Offline scout34

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2007, 10:02:27 AM »
Just watched the video of the Kel Tec.  I gotta get me one of those.  I've got an M1A in the Sage EBR stock and it's a boat anchor.  I carried the same setup for a year in Iraq and it weighs a ton.  Something that compact in .308 would be great.  9 lbs loaded is not bad either.

Offline pastorp

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2007, 07:15:49 PM »
 ;D
Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

Offline BIG Dog454

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2007, 05:37:17 AM »
I want to build a SKS to shoot the 35 rem, add a light plastic stock, and a red dot scope. I think that it would make a great hunting rifle for the woods.

Offline merhunts

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Re: The Ultimate Rifle - What would yours be?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2007, 02:48:03 AM »
My choice would be a versatile caliber such as 243 0r 3006. in a very compact, well balanced frame. Not too heavy. But my main feature in this gun would be a scope that has a range finder built in. And you could input the type of bullet you are shooting put the cross hairs on the target and the scope automatically adjust to the position it needs to be to hit dead on, No guessing yardage and you hit everything you put your cross hairs on. If you really think about it, caliber is not really important at all in this gun.
You can't kill 'em if you ain't in the woods.