44Spl vs 44Mag

[JKF59]

  Ive got a question that I would like to get some input from others. Curiosity mostly.
  First some info. I have a 3 inch S&W 629. I carry Speer 44 Spl 200 gr Gold Dots in it. With this load I can keep 12 shots in a 3X3 inch square at 15 yards double action, rapid aimed fire. With the Speer 210 gr 44 Mag load I cant do as well but I can put 12 shots in a 4X4 inch square at a slightly slower pace. I'm sure that some folks can shoot better than this but I think that my accuracy with either load is adequate. I have been away from this type of shooting for a number of years but I want to start training again. I am reloading again also.
  My question is should I carry magnum loads if I feel that I can control them or stick with 44 Specials? Would a magnum load produce quicker stops in a fight? Would the extra blast and flash be too much? Lets hear your thoughts on it.

[ihuntbucks]

Looks like to me you should use the one you are most comfortable with.From what you say you are very good with either one.One thing,on night fire,the .44 mag load will have more muzzle flash.This could be a problem as far as temp blindness for a 2nd well placed shot........Rick

[JKF59]

  Hello ihuntbucks. Thanks for the response. As far as what any given person is "most comfortable" with I guess it would have to be the lighter load. On the other hand what one shooter is comfortable with might be more than another could handle well. Of course that is not a revelation.
  I remember many moons ago when I was first learning to shoot handguns, everything was more than I could handle well. Getting used to 38 Spl ammo takes time if you havent shot it any. I had one S&W 686 that I fired over 10.000 rounds of 38's through. I was comfortable with it but  as I stepped up to 357's I had to learn to handle the increased noise and recoil. This is not news to experienced shooters but my curiousity wants to know if there is a limit to how much power can be handled effectively. Is there an upper limit and how do you know where it is? How much accuracy and speed can you afford to give up in return for more power? Folks compromise on this all of the time or else everyone would shoot 38 special or 32's or 22's for that matter. I would think that the use of 44 mags over Specials would be as useful as 357's over 38's. Maybe not.
  Your thoughts on night fire and muzzle flash are very valid however what is the limit on that? Also I suppose certain powders might be better than others. I know that Remington 180 gr Mags produce an unbelievable report and flash. The fire ball is several feet long. Other magnum loads that Ive shot are not nearly as severe.

[SHOOTALL]

for personal protection against humans and such 44spl. seems right unless you are not worried about hitting people behind a wall or target etc.
speed kills , your ability to fire fast ( speed ) shots might save your bacon one day .
night fire , buy ammo with a low flash signature !         ( most LEO ammo ) if you hand load well cut load to little unused powder if piratical .

[JKF59]

  Shootall, thanks for your response. You are absolutely correct in the concern for innocent bystanders. Of course there is always the possibility of innocents being injured when bullets are flying. A person is accepting that responsibility when he or she carries a firearm and chooses to use it. I would always try to avoid a conflict if possible as should any sane person.
  I would think that the extra velocity of the magnum load might cut down on penetration in most cases assuming a hollow point were used. If the 200 gr Gold Dot in the Speer 44 Spl were to be fired at say 1300 fps it would probably penetrate less because of increased expansion. Maybe not. What about Glasers?
  Also I agree with you on the fast repeat shots. What if I could fire 44 Mags just as fast and accurate as say you could fire 44 Specials? Should I use the mags or always go with what I am faster with?
  Remember these are questions out of curiousity. Where is the line? I dont have the answers, I'm just interested in what others might think about it. I carry 44 Specials now and feel very comfortable with them. I could carry 38 Special and be faster and more accurate.... but I dont. If no one pushed the envelope we would be shooting 38 S&W.
  Thanks again for the responses so far. Any one else want to weigh in with their thoughts. It dont cost nuthin.

[1sourdough]

 Especially with a 3" barrel I would load 44 spcl's in most cases. Of course as a reloader you can load up some milder mag loads in a 44 mag case. One option is to use a better quality lighter weight 180 grn bullet. This is not the gun for max charges of Win 296 under a heavy bullet. 

[SHOOTALL]

debate is good !
if you could shoot 44mag's as fast as i could shoot 44spl , i would reason you may shoot spl faster than you shoot mags .
we must not get into a contest where you beat me , you must do your best ! if your goal is to beat me and you run up against an attacker that is better than me YOU MIGHT BE SCREWED !
pushing the envelope , to me that means on a personal level , you push yourself to the max speed , accy , and power you can deliver to and attacker !
one must consider size of weapon for concealment and portability . a gun shop owner told me once that in a fight he would want a 45 but he carried a j frame 38 . cause he could carry it all the time and would have it !
and as far as one shot stops , do you only load one bullet ? anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice is the old saying .
hollow point bullets at mag. speed are safer , every thing with regard to hollow points revolves around them working as advertised and none do so 100% of the time at hand gun speed ! get yourself some Sheetrock and see what your load does . Quite honestly i would not depend on a bullet that would not go thru. Sheetrock walls to protect me . besides if it explodes on paper and dust will it stop a threat ?
most attacks stop when a gun is drawn , most shootings are at almost contact distance , and if you shoot keep shooting until the attack stops and can't hurt you ! so a small 38/357 gun that is always with you is not a bad choice !
that said a small 44spl would fill the bill as well or better . I have a 3 inch bbl 44mag derringer its a nice back up ! i shoot it with mags and spl but carry spl most of the time . mags are reserved for in the woods or cow pens .

[JKF59]

Hello again Shootall.

debate is good !
if you could shoot 44mag's as fast as i could shoot 44spl , i would reason you may shoot spl faster than you shoot mags .
we must not get into a contest where you beat me , you must do your best ! if your goal is to beat me and you run up against an attacker that is better than me YOU MIGHT BE SCREWED !

  I am debating nothing. I have stated no position on this subject. All of my remarks to this point in time have been questions. There is no contest between you and I.

pushing the envelope , to me that means on a personal level , you push yourself to the max speed , accy , and power you can deliver to and attacker !
one must consider size of weapon for concealment and portability . a gun shop owner told me once that in a fight he would want a 45 but he carried a j frame 38 . cause he could carry it all the time and would have it !

  Max speed, accuracy and power... these are exactly my question. Generally, each one of these three aspects affects the other two. More speed equals less power and accuracy, more power = less speed and so on and so on. You get the picture. At some point an individual has to make a decision, or better yet every individual that carries HAS made a decision as to how much speed and accuracy he will give up for a certain level of power. Obviously the decision is also influenced by the other factors that you mentioned like size, weight, etc... All of these issues when viewed at the same time make it difficult to apply an order of importance but the order is there or else a decision would never have been made.
  In my case, when I carry my 3" S&W 629, my size, weight and concealability decisions have been made. Now apply the speed, accuracy and power equation to this gun. I find that there is no equation. That is my question. How do you quantify speed or accuracy or power as it applies to a defense handgun and what amounts of each are needed. In other words, can I meet the speed and accuracy requirements when I am shooting 44 mags.

  Hello 1sourdough. Thank you for your response. I agree that a 180 grain bullet in a 44Spl case would be very reasonable. I carry Speer 200 gr Gold Dot factory loads. I just cant help but wonder, since I have the capability in my gun to shoot mags, if I should shoot them to presumably gain more stopping power.

  I guess the roots of the question are how much speed and accuracy is required so that I will know if I can achieve that level with my magnum loads. This is not only my question but everyones question. Everybody should be able to answer this question in order to justify what they are carrying now. Even if its a J frame you have a choice of 38, 38+P or 357 Mag.
 

[Mikey]

JKF59:  I would suggest you go with what you are best with and that appears to be the 44 Spl loads in that 3" M29.  Since you handload you can charge your cases with powders that give a lower flash signature.  If you want to see the difference try shooting at dusk or early dawn and see how quickly you can get back on target with the brighter flashing loads - you might surprise yourself and find the 44 specials are better.  You may also wish to try this from a darkened room if you use this revolver for home defense.  I can guarantee you that the muzzle blast and flash will both deafen you and reduce your eyesight to flashes and it will be difficult to reacquire your target in the dark. 

You can change powders easily.  I believe that the slower burning powders create less of a muzzle flash from shorter barrels but I could be very wrong - this is something you just need to experiment with - maybe some of the other responders can chime in with some recommendations for low flash powders.  The 44 Spl is more than capable of defending you, especially with your level of accuracy. 

44 magnums in contrast to 44 Spls, like 357 magnums in contrast to 38 Spls, do not always relate directly to stopping power.  Stopping power is a paper factor.  The only shots that count are the ones that hit.  Humans are soft targets and some 44 spls and 38 spls will penetrate through and through, making the use of a magnum round a moot point.  Magnum rounds are good for large dangerous animals and criminals or attackers may well fit that definition but often you should expect complete penetration with magnum loads on human targets and as such the magnum loads may not provide the terminal performance you would expect.  Hollow pointed bullets may not expand according to doctrine and they and soft nosed bullets may well deflect off solid or protective bone structures like rib cages.

An example of bullet effectiveness can be drwan from Police chronicles from the old days (ouch, this dates me).  One story provided that two western officers responded to a call about a drunk with a gun at a bar.  Both officers carried 44 Magnum revolvers that were charged with 44 Special loads developed by Elmer Keith - hard cast semi wadcutter slugs over generous charges of 2400 powder.  These loads were pretty close if not in the same power range as the 44 magnum.  The story goes that the drunk exits the bar and faces the officers with revolver in hand, refused to throw it down on command and either took aim at the officers or fired at them.  When the smoke cleared, immediately afterward, the officers had fired all 12 of their rounds.  The bad guy had 11 entrance and exit wounds in his body and was 'dead on his feet' before he dropped.  All the slugs had exited the body, which means that all the slugs had failed to expend all their terminal energy into the target. 

I cannot surmise that 44 special loads would have performed any better on the target but control ability is a major factor in defensive shooting and if your control is better with the 44 special loads I would suggest you stay with that power level for better control and accuracy. 

A footnote to this story is that both officers continued on with their careers in law enforcement.  Whenever the experience was spoken to one would jokingly remark to the other that it was the other who had missed with the one round.  While that sounds a bunch like battlefield bravado and comraderie among veterans there were other, more telling results of this police shooting.  One of the officers experienced terrible emotional and personal stresses as a result of his experience and wasn't quite ever the same after.  He died later, earlier in life, of a cancer that many felt was brought about by the personal stressors he experienced.

In this regard I doubt a 44 magnum loading would have been any more effective and again recommend your going with what you are best with.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[SHOOTALL]

THE debate is the 44spl. vs. 44mag

to cut to the heart of your ?
the simple answer is which round can you fire the fastest and have the highest hit score with .
these ?'s always got to bears ok the 44mag. may be better then but in most other cases the spl. will most likely work fine !
a miss with a 44mag. is never as good as a center hit with a 44 spl.

[JKF59]

Thanks Mikey & Shootall for your most recent responses.
  Mikey, I find your thoughts on the flash interesting. It was brought up before by ihuntbucks and I think of all of the comments so far that the concern about flash is the most relevant. More powder = more flash. I think no one would disagree that the more flash a round has the worse it would be in some situations. Also with increased flash comes increased blast I would think. I can think of no situation that increased blast/flash would be a good thing.
 
  As for recoil, speed and accuracy... these are all relative things. Relative to other cartridges that a shooter might use and relative to other shooters. Just because one shooter thinks the recoil of a 44 Mag is too great for a defense cartridge doesnt mean everyone does. Too great based on what criteria? Just because I might shoot a milder cartridge somewhat more accurately does not mean that I am not accurate with a 44 Mag. How much accuracy is enough? These things would have to be quantified to be able to make an informed decision. Until that happens every persons opinion on the subject is really just a feeling.

  Maybe it was silly on my part to even bring it up because everyone knows that a full power 44 Mag is too much for a defense gun. Shoot, I even carry 44 Spl in my model 629.

  The story about the Keith bullets sounds like good evidence against hard cast not 44 Mags,

  I think I will run some tests regarding muzzle flash. Maybe try to get some photos to post to show the difference. I dont know how I could measure blast or noise levels. If anybody has any input on methods to compare cartridges just speak right up.

  If I found nothing more than a reason to go out and shoot more then this thread has been a positive thread. Thanks guys.

[Wolfgang]

I think I'll weigh in on this one.  The 44mag is a wonderful round and can be used for almost anything to include defense against two legged gobblins.  It is on the other hand, more juice than you really need.  I am the firearms instructor on the department that I work for and have the freedom to carry pretty much what I please and for me I have settled on a Govt. Model 45 ACP (Springfield Armory 1911-A1) and off duty one of the three 44 specials that I own. 

Remember that you need to define what your intended use for the cartridge is then go from there.  Given the difference in abilbilty to control recoil, You Can shoot the 44 Special faster providing using the same gun, and no giant dispersion in bullet weights.  Any round has the ability to kill something it is just a matter of how quickly the bullet does its job in shutting down major vitals and causing the body to stop doing what it was doing to cause you to shoot it in the first place.  For some just being shot at with a BB gun would be enough an for other multiple hits with a rifle aren't enough.  Just depends.  It's a given that nobody wants to leak!

A good hit or two with a 44 special will get the job done as well as anything and you don't have all the attendant over penetration issues and blast and recoil to contend with as long as you are using modern defensive ammunition.  If you look at the ballistics of 44 magnum ammo loaded for defense, you will find that it is loaded down and with lighter bullets.  Remember that you are not getting the hydrostatic action that a rifle provides out of any pistol caliber cartrige and you have to depend on direct tissue damage caused by the bullets path and the larger that is the more it comes in contact with.

In closing I would add that there is no such thing as a magic bullet and a loud noise from a giant gun never killed anyone.  What you are most comfortable with and can, on demand, produce several good hits with, is what you should be carrying.  I prefer large caliber slow bullets, some like smaller caliber fast bullets its a personal thing and one that you live with after the choice.  All of that being said, I end up grabbing my model 60 38 special a lot of the time just because it is easy to carry and it it better to have any gun than none at all.  I have heard others talk of gunfights that they have been involved in and I have never heard anyone say that they wished they had a smaller gun or one with less ammunition with them when it happened.  Nobody goes knowingly into a gunfight with a handgun and if I knew I were heading into a fight I would attempt to avoid it at all costs and if that were not possible I would grab a good rifle or a twelve gauge an hope for the best.  We carry handguns because they are portable and easy to convey from place to place during our daily lives not because any of them are particularly effective.

Best,

Stay safe,

Wolfgang.