cast or jacketed for the 357 max

[7bru]

need some input on bullet types for hunting deer with a 357 max.  this may or may not be the proper place for this question.

t/c contender g2 357 maximum 180 gr or 200 gr bullets for shots ranging from up close and personal out to 150-200 yards.  muzzle velocity would be around the 1700 to 1800 fps.

 I have only shot this gun at paper and have no experience in this caliber range with pistol bullets and killing deer. i have taken several deer with bottleneck contender pistols at a couple hundred yards so hitting them is not an issue.

I have read of several issues with jacketed bullets and up close shots having some jacket separations.  no big deal to me as long as i get the deer.  i have read about a lot of people hunting with cast bullets and not having a lot of meat damage.

so for this application which would be the better bullet, 180 xtp hornady or similiar. or a gas checked hard cast bullet by cast performance, beartooth or some other provider of hardcast bullets.

I have never shot any of the hardcast style bullets and would just like to hear some opinions and experiences with deerhunting.  it seams that the hardcast bullets are a lot more popular with the revolver hunters in the big calibers when shooting hogs and black bear. correct me if i am wrong in anyway.

thanks BRU

[blhof]

I have killed with both and it's a matter of what performs better in your barrel.  In my Dan Wesson the cast bullets outperform the jacketed, in the contender the 180/200 jacketed are the most accurate.  With the DW, I usually keep my shots around 50yds.  With the contender,I've made hits to 150yds with excellent results.  DW 8" barrel; Contender 14". Also try the pointed 358 bullets if you reload.

[7bru]

I haven't tried any of the spitzer rifle bullets yet.  xtp's 180 shot at times pretty good at 100 yards.

thanks BRU

[Chris Potts]

I haven't had a chance to try them on deer yet, but my 200gr beartooth bullets load with lil'gun shoots under a half inch at 50 yrds.  This was with an encore rifle barrel.  I have only been able to make one trip to the range since I got the barrel.  I will continue working on loads for this gun, but I doubt that I will do significantly better.  Some people will tell you that you can't get the accuracy with lead bullets.  I personally would not agree.  I am looking forward to using this load on deer this fall.  I expect that it will perform very well.

Chris

[7bru]

thanks chris.  i think i am going to order some beartooth 185's and give them a shot.

BRU

[Catfish]

BRU,
   I have taken 4 deer in the last 3 years with a .357 max. 15 in. Bullberry barrel on an Encore frame. I have tried the 180 gn. Serria`s and the 158 gn. Hornady XTP`s. With both bullets you have to stay away from heavy bone. When you can put them through the rib cage any of these bullets do a fantastic job, but the bullets designed for the .357 mag. are pretty fragile at .357 mag. velosities, and I did lose the first deer I hit with the 180 Serrias because I tried to take out the frount shoulder of a deer. I took out the shoulder, but the bullet stopped short of the heart. I have not tried the hard cast bullets, for game yet, but I am sure they would be far better for rear end shots and smaching the shoulders.

[Chris Potts]

Good penetration is one of the reasons that I favor cast bullets.  I have some of btb's 185's that I got for my ruger bisley 357 mag.  I have not had a chance to load any of them yet.  I will keep you posted if I do.  If you want to use jacketed bullets, any of the ones design for the 35 remington are good choices since the velocity is close.

Chris

[7bru]

thanks guys. I am in the process of getting either some bullets cast by an individual or going with a manufacturer like cast performance or beartooth.

matching the velocity to the bullet type would be the most important thing to do when using jacketed bullets.

pistol bullet at rifle velocities at close range would be bad news but also using a rifle bullet at pistol velocities at a longer range would probally be just as bad.

from what i understand cast bullets can do both.  i might be wrong. just got to shoot some slickheads and see.

BRU

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on what your trying to do. In my opinion your probably pushing it a little hard for cast or for jacketed handgun bullets. If i was going to load a tc up to those levels id consider trying 180-200 jacketed bullets desinged for the 35 rem. Your velocit level is more in line with them. Not that cast wont work but your on the border line of asking for bullet failure. Cast below 18 bhn and there going to upset and possible effect penetration and cast harder you risk fracture. Its a fine balancing act. Alot of bullet companys like cast performance water drop there bullets and that can make them a little brittle. If i was going to look for an optimum cast bullet i would try to find one that is air cooled and about 18bhn and even then id stick to about 1500 fps. I would put the absoulte max with a 200 at 1700 and wouldnt go over 1500 with a cast performance bullet. Another option is to go to someone like mt baldy who doesnt water drop. Frank doesnt cast hard either and that could be a problem for you. If you understand that the bullets are going to upset and treat shot placement like you would for a jacketed bullet (dont count on extreem pentration) they would act alot like a soft point and expand. It might be a balancing act with them as far as leading goes so make sure you use a gas check design. Used with that mentality you ought to be able to run them to 1700 out of a good tc barrel. The maximum is a neat round. IVe never owned one but have shot quite a few. Its right on the heals of a 3030 or 35 rem rifle and anyone thats hunted with one of them knows how good it works!! If you can find a balancing point with your load it will take any game animal in the US.

[Chris Potts]

sorry

[Blammer]

IF it were me, I'd use the 180 SSSP from Hornady. They should be good performers in jacketed bullets.

I would also look at the 180 gr Horn XTP's.


In lead bullets, look for a LBT design, hard cast. Drive em hard! The big fat meplat will do the damage, and if you hit bone it will punch through. It won't fracture. Don't count on 'soft' lead to expand, you won't want to shoot 'soft' lead at high velocity in your max. You probably wouldn't want to shoot a 'soft' lead bullet at modest velocities out of your max, what's the point?

[Catfish]

I agree with Lloyd to a point. I believe you will have trouble with any cast bullet that is NOT gas checked. I have pushed some Lead Head gas checked bullets to at least 2,500 fps. with no signs of leading. If you try to get them hard enough to take that velocity without a gas check they become to brittle.

[myronman3]

Wow only 1700?  I saw some crazy guy on one of the other forums shooting cast bullets at something like 2600 fps out of a 3030 tc.  Someone should warn him.  I can't get the little faces to insert into the message.  I wanted to put in the one with the big grin.

Chris

lloyd and i dont always agree,  but i wouldnt ever doubt him when it comes to experience with cast bullets.  not only is he knowlegible, but he shares it and is always helpful.    i think a little respect is in order.

[Chris Potts]

I also have a great deal of respect for Lloyd.  I was intending to be humerous.  If I offended him or anyone else I am sorry.  I will edit the post.

Chris

[Lloyd Smale]

Chris i can see where you question my statement. Yup i can push 120s out of my 3030 at speeds even higher then 2600 and do it with zero leading if i do it right. What youve got to do those is think about what your trying to accomplish with a gun. Those little 120s at that speed cast hard enough to work will react about like a varmit bullet when they hit game. They will no doubt shatter. It may work just fine to kill  a whitetail ( something im going to find out) but will require just as percise bullet placement as if a guy was using a 223 and 55 grain soft points. What your trying to do with a 35 cal tc when hunting is getting the bullet to penetrate. What that requires is a bullet that doesnt deform even it it hits bone. Jacketet soft point pistol bullets at those speeds would act again like varimity bullets. I doubt if your going to get any penetration at all. Hard cast at 1800 are most likely not going to shatter and act like a varmit pill but there going to rivit and probably dive in the animal and not penetrate well. Once a cast bullet deforms in anyway pentration suffers alot. Ive shot hogs with the 35 rem using cast bullets. A 200 rcbs round flat gas check which is a fine bullet. Cast out of 5050 ww/lyno. Any harder and your flirting with bullets breaking and any softer and there going to deform. Trust me on this. This is the alloy you want to use. I shot them at about 1600 fps and wouldnt push them any harder. They will kill a hog right now if you put them in the shoulder. The two we shot with it dropped in there tracks and the bullet did some impressive damage inside the hog. I dare say as much as any cast bullet. Now another advantage to that bullet design over say a 160 grain handgun cast is sectional density. The longer 200 has more and will penetrate better. It has a slightly smaller metplat too. In most cases this isnt a good thing but when pushing bullets over 1300fps it creates plenty of wound channel. (believe me on that one) and tends to resist deforming. In my opinion if your going to want a reliable hunting bullet for the 35s and want to push it hard your better off with the 200 grain jacketed or the 180 hornadys that were recomended. In my opinion when it comes to cast and hunting the 35 calibers will work but there on the small side whether your talking a 357 mag or a 35 and you need to understand that its a balancing act with them. I dont doubt a bit that a 180 cast at 2000 fps will kill a deer its just that youd best understand what your using and use it knowing that your not going to break bone or get stem to stern penetration like you would with a cast 44 mag at 1200 fps.

[Chris Potts]

Lloyd that was a very informative post.  The load that I intended to use for hunting is a 200 gr. bullet  at about 1800 ( after reading your post I may back this load down at little more).  I have pushed them faster because I was curious to see if they would lead the barrel (they did not).  I learned in great part from you and many others on these forums that a heavy bullet at moderate velocities will give better penetration and wound channels than a bullet at high velocities.  I was not trying to call into question your knowledge on such subjects.  It was merely a poor attempt at being humorous.  I think that instead of being funny, I came off as some know it all, smart $$$ kid.  I will try to be more conscientious about what I write in the future.

Chris

[Lloyd Smale]

dont worry pal im the king of sarcasm on here and i didnt take your post that way anyway.

[7bru]

thanks guys for the info. I will have to say that speed is not the issue for me.
i seam to like h4227 the best for my gun so far.

any speed between 1500 and 1900 will be just fine.  ACCURACY is what i want with some good bullet performance.  I am not sold on cast bullets. i have yet to shoot any so i don't have an opinion.  just want to try something different.  jacketed bullets will be fine.

what i do have is a tandem load of used lead bullets ready to melt down and thought i would give them a try.

BRU

[Lloyd Smale]

shoot a few animals with cast and youll never go back to jacketed bullets. In my opinion any gun that runs under 2000 fps is better off with cast. No doubt jacketed are superion in most high power rilfle loads but in handgun loads its a no brainer. Again in my opinion for what its worth the only use for a jacketed pistol bullet is to clean lead fouling out of a gun but ive found that gas check cast do about the same anyway. People balk at spending top dollar on good cast bullets but you have to understand that there premium bullets just like if your buying barns or nos partitions for your rifle. There performance in the field definately justifys the cost and if you cast yourself you will soon see that by the time you invest all the money it takes and time it takes to cast your own good bullets there prices are a bargin.

[7bru]

thanks lloyd smale.  i am in the process of getting some bullets from a friend on cast boolits.

BRU