Author Topic: EMP Bombs  (Read 3599 times)

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Offline USA-80

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EMP Bombs
« on: January 06, 2006, 12:03:30 PM »
So what do you think about the possibility of EMP bombs.  The following is just one of many articles on the Internet about this subject:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281421.html

I have a friend who insisted on a safe with a combination lock instead of the electronic locks that are so popular nowdays.  Personally, I agree with him.

Offline Jack Crevalle

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EMP Bombs
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 09:25:02 PM »
I don't get the line about "engines will never start again". Certainly the electronic ignition, on-board computers, etc. would be fried, but once those components were replaced the engine should be able to run. Older cars that have no electronics except for entertainment should be alright. Telephone wires melt? Maybe real close to the initial "detenation" and junctions, amplifers, etc. I'm not saying telephones would work because they rely on electronic switching now and the phones themselves are loaded with electronics.

Computers would not be "wiped of all data". Again the electronics, including the control electronics of harddrives would be fried but magnetic media would probably be uneffected and if the control electronics for the hard drive replaced it could be read. Optical media, CDs, DVDs, etc. would be uneffected.

It would be a bad time until all of the electronics were replaced, but not as bad as this guy makes out. I would also suspect that an EMP device for $400  or the ones the military is developing would have a limited range unlike the "original" EMP bomb which was just to detonate a nuclear device several miles above the intended target.

By electronics I mean of course solid state electronics. Older vacuum tube types would still operate.

Offline ShadowMover

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EMP Bombs
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2006, 02:34:16 AM »
Older cars with points will be not be effected, but most vehicles have alternators now and the diode bridges inside that convert the AC output to DC will be toast.  Depending on the EMP strength. Almost any electronic device , even the tube stuff could fail, especially if close to the EMP and if is on while operating.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2006, 09:18:43 AM »
My brain is toast! Does that mean the Hen is an EMP bomb?  :oops:
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2006, 10:52:25 AM »
Quote from: ShadowMover
Older cars with points will be not be effected, but most vehicles have alternators now and the diode bridges inside that convert the AC output to DC will be toast.  Depending on the EMP strength. Almost any electronic device , even the tube stuff could fail, especially if close to the EMP and if is on while operating.


No, it does not have to be on or even plugged in if it uses AC.

Offline USA-80

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EMP Bombs
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2006, 12:20:01 PM »
I agree with Jack that the article is a bit sensationalized.  But, I think we would all agree that it is a serious threat.  I'm more worried about one that costs $400,000 to make rather than one that costs $400.  It could take a long time for things to return to normal (if they ever do).

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2006, 07:49:39 PM »
Quote from: Jack Crevalle
Quote from: ShadowMover
Older cars with points will be not be effected, but most vehicles have alternators now and the diode bridges inside that convert the AC output to DC will be toast.  Depending on the EMP strength. Almost any electronic device , even the tube stuff could fail, especially if close to the EMP and if is on while operating.


No, it does not have to be on or even plugged in if it uses AC.


I agree it does not have to be powered up to be damaged. I suspect the net effect on alternators will be worse if it is powered up when the EMP hits it.  I've no real data to base it on.

Offline slide-flipper

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Wow... just found this thread...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2006, 10:49:29 AM »
you guys were reading my mind before I was thinking it... are you sure my wife isn't on this board?  

Just really started considering the whole nuclear terrorism thing as a real possibility.  Despite the fact that a nuclear strike on America by some ragheads would probably result in the eradication of several of their nations as we know them today, they don't think logically, at least according to western logic so... we gotta plan...

I had just decided to find an older 4x4 with probably a straight six and a point style ignition just to keep around... just "in-case" you know... wouldn't want to have to rely on the old Ford tractor...

I think it's all in the little things... wind up clocks, water filtration system of some kind, reliable transportation, guns, ammo, knives, and even a way to cook.

Right now I'm stationed in Germany and can only plan and prepare so much.  Just have to rely on DoD for everything else.  But in the US, we have horses so the transportation is fairly well handled, but would still like to get an older 4x4 like above.  House there has a wood burning stove and the house heating and stove run off the big tank out back.  Plenty of firearms.  Would like to add a couple more for specific applications.  Need to lay in a bigger stock of .223, 12 ga, .30-06, 22 lf and 45 ACP though.

Gotta figure out a water filtration system of some kind though... time to start the research...

slide-flipper

Offline ShadowMover

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EMP Bombs
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2006, 03:31:52 PM »
The EMP threat is real and serious, IMO. There are also non nuclear EMP devices, but they are much more local in nature, say less than a mile from the device.  There was some talk about these devices being used against Iraqi power stations, radars, and CIC centers. The nuclear ones are much more effective, especially when set off at a high altitude, where they can 'see' the ground targets. The nuclear device have a much quicker magnetic pulse, caused by gamma rays knocking electrons from the surrounding air, which makes a much higher voltage, and more damage. The only protection is magnetic shielding, distance, or designed in toughness. Shielding is outrageously expensive, and impractical. The Soviets used a lot of old fashioned radio tubes in their military gear. Some say it was because of their backward technology, others it was by design as a safeguard against EMP. Maybe it was both.  :grin:  Anyway, our society today is very vulnerable to such a weapon. Imagine every cordless phone, every transistorized radio, the internet, and every computer controlled car ignition shorted out.  Keeping a car with a set of ignition points and an old fashioned generator, with a mechanical regulator and with brushes instead of alternators with diodes, is about the only way around it for transportation. I guess an older diesel with mechanical injectors, and a standard transmission so you could push start it, would be very immune. An old tube style radio should still work, if there were any transmitters working.  Our military uses electronics that are supposed to be EMP resistant, but obviously that don't talk about how effective it is. I sure wouldn't want to have to go through it. It would be great to hear from others about what we as individuals can do to protect ourselves.

Offline corbanzo

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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2006, 11:36:16 AM »
And seroiusly you can't underestimate the power of new weapons developed.  Like a atom bomb.  The reaction after the first test?  WOAH!!!   :)   Like any other weapon the reaction with electrons in the atmoshpere and and size to power ratios are yet unknown....
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline S.S.

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 09:05:32 AM »
Remember a year or so ago when there was several blackouts
that were never explained.?
The Soviets developed EMP devices years ago that were as small as a Briefcase.
Non-Nuke so no blast. Do they still have them all, I seriously doubt it.
Have we seen the effects of one or two of them... I believe so
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Bear Rider

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2006, 10:09:03 AM »
AFAIK, this EMP thing is all theoretical, since there has NEVER been an above ground test to verify it.

Given the inverse square relationship of a propogated wave, combined with my own experience with near miss lightning, I find it diffucult to believe most of this is anything other than nonsense.
Flintlock! Anything else is imitation.

Offline ShadowMover

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2006, 03:50:46 PM »
AFAIK, this EMP thing is all theoretical, since there has NEVER been an above ground test to verify it.

Given the inverse square relationship of a propogated wave, combined with my own experience with near miss lightning, I find it diffucult to believe most of this is anything other than nonsense.


Well what can I say? I guess you're right, as you quoted the inverse square law and you were almost struck by lighting. That's good enough for me.  BTW how close did it get? Any smell of burned hair? 

Offline Bear Rider

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2006, 12:49:53 PM »
I've had two near misses of buildings that I was in, both within 50 feet or so, back when I worked at Los Alamos National Labs. In neither case was any electrical damage suffered. In one case there were two main frame computers running, and who knows how many calculators and monitors. The other was a residence.
Flintlock! Anything else is imitation.

Offline masek77

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2007, 07:21:26 PM »
The writers often describe an upper atmosperic explosion of a nuclear device when they talk about an EMP device. Any nuclear explosion that high up would do pretty much no damage, not even to orbiting satelites. Almost no energy would make it into the atmosphere and what did make it would be too weak to damage even the most sensitive of equipment.

Because of the inverse square law, and several other factors, the damage from the energy pulse of a nuclear weapon would be highly localized. Damage from blast effects, as well as heat and primary fallout would be a much more pressing problem IMO.

The US military has several non nuclear devices that will cause damage to power transmission lines, etc. Many of them involve the release of a few tons of electrically charged, very fine aluminum into the air around a power substation. The power station is shorted out but not heavily damaged and can be quickly repaired afterwards.

Thats kind of the point to EMP bombs anyway, to be able to quickly rebuild infrastructure after an event while denying an enemy the use of that infrastructure temporarily.

Most people are unaware of the incredible amount of energy required to damage electronics from a distance. In most cases the damage is only slight. Whatever cuts off is often restarted within a few seconds at worst. Also since military electronics are shielded from such devices, an EMP bomb is useless against military targets.



Offline SDS-GEN

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2007, 07:18:11 AM »
When I worked on computers 10 years ago all of them had funky little coils around incoming wires.  I was told that this was to protect the unit from EMP. 

Offline darrell8937

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Re: EMP Bombs
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 12:49:29 PM »
Since I was a Army soldier in a Special Weapons section and actually built tactical nuclear weapons during the 1980's(M422 & M753 Nuclear Projectiles) you would think I could speak wit authority on the subject! But the fact is that there is so much bull floating around the Internet and the training I received dealt  in basic theory, how your TV would work was not a worry to us! The tactical nukes we built were part of the Nations Electronic warfare Arsenal, though their primary mission was to stop large troop and armor division crossing into  western Europe. These weapons were shielded and must always be kept in their protective case until assembled in battle! except the m422 Nuclear projectile. It was immune. No electronics. Though it too was not assembled until a fire mission and a time on target due to security, and the diffrence in yield at build.  Never preambled before hand. We would get a fire mission and assemble for a specific time on target to minimize the time these electronics were vulnerable to the soviet counterpart! When a nuclear device is detonated, a large magnetic field is created. When a conductor like a simple wire or even your aluminum ladder in the yard is exposed to a strong magnetic  field, current will be induced. Circuits that are designed to carry high current would not be affected much. Small transistors and delicate electronics are most vulnerable(inter grated circuits). Something to think about! A fun little project to demonstrate, Take a compass, every Graybeard member has one, even the ones with GPS. Except for the members that have postings in the surival section under"Lost" thouh most just didn't trust the compass they had. Place it close to the positive terminal on you car battery and have someone crank the engine. The current passing thru the wire causes a magnetic filed and the compass will go nuts. When current passes Thu a conductor, heat will be generated. It is this heat in circuits that don't like no extra heat that are most vulnerable. It also works in reverse! Thank GOD we trained hard and deterred a major war! " The Cold war, no heros , just casualites! And I can't give blood to the Red cross. Not the Nuclear materials I was exspossed to,  but the british fed their cows brain&spinal tisses from other cows, Mad Cow diease, It was all a secret back then. Thanks Brits! I hate the british, except Winston Chuchill and Mr. Bean! Well not all of them. Just annoyed I guess! What a world we live in! Those hamburgers in the mess hall were good tasting though. Though food tastes better when you are realy hungury and exhausted! I have yet to go mad. Well maybe a little!