Author Topic: .243 reloading Quirks ? bad Fl die ? (Read 2318 times)

trotterlg · « **Reply #30 on:** July 08, 2007, 12:19:33 PM »

First thing is that barrels make better Grape stakes than pry bars. I would try two things with the dies, first size a never fired piece and see what happens, second, size the fired brass, rotate it 180 degrees and size it again, see if either of those fit. Larry

~Ace~ · « **Reply #31 on:** July 08, 2007, 12:28:12 PM »

I did both, the Unfired (in this gun) brass run through my die fits perfect, And thinking it may be stretching the case at an angle, I rotated one 180, and another in 90 degree steps, No dice. It's like the Head of the case is growing. It's done aggravated me enough now I'll never like the barrel, or the caliber. I wanted something a lil heavier than the .223 for yotes at a distance, I guess I'll wait till I find a .22-250. Thanks for all the help, I really apreciate it. ~Ace~

cwlongshot · « **Reply #32 on:** July 08, 2007, 12:30:20 PM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on July 08, 2007, 12:13:49 PM

I Smoked the latch, Perfect... Loaded more and shot 5 groups of 3, None under 4" No Pop opens, No gap between barrel and reciever after shots, and none of the brass will resize to fit flush after, I'm gonna assume it's just a wacked out Barrel. I looked at the chamber with a bore light, and see no abnormalities, it now has 75 rounds through it. It will make a nice pry bar ) ~Ace~

So you can take one of these spent cases, put it back in your gun and it will close and latch with NO GAP? But once you run them thru the die there is a gap.

Bear with me as I didn't understand this happened this way before...

I could send you a couple pieces of brass re-sized in my dies, that fit in my handi..... Or could you borrow a buddies sizer die to try? Or both.

CW

~Ace~ · « **Reply #33 on:** July 08, 2007, 12:50:24 PM »

"Once fired" Brass I bought already Sized (from 2 dif people) fits Perfect

If I load one and Shoot it, there is No gap, it Ejects fine, but if I pick it up and put it back in, it will not close without a gap ... I draw on it with a Sharpie, run through my die it re sizes, with uniform contact, but still will not fit.

If i mark the shoulder with a shaprie on one that will not fit, put it in and close the chamber 1/2 doz times, they marks are not disturbed, it's like the Head it's self has grown.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:02:24 PM »

Ace

The more i see , the more i am thinking that you have a barrel fitting problem which is causing a head space issue , this is from the fact that you can not get a fireformed case to fit properly . Bare with me for a min. , if you had a proper headspace your fired brass should fit like a glove .

But if you have a barrel that is moving forward under the pressure of the round being fired this will make the brass grow in the head area as well as the sholder .

Also have you checked the specs on the brass after it comes out of the sizing die to see if it is being sized properly ?

You should have a 0.471 at the base and a 0.454 just below the sholder .

Just some more ideas .

stimpy

Ireload2 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:16:45 PM »

Try this. Size your brass with the shell holder hard against the die. Partially with draw the case (without expanding the neck) rotate the case about 120 degrees and size again. Repeat again. After 3 passes at zing against the shell holder it should fit your barrel. The first brass you got fit it ok. I suspect your press and die set is not doing what it needs to do. You also said factory ammo fit. All adds up to inadequate sizing.

trotterlg · « **Reply #36 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:34:13 PM »

If you are ready to throw in the towel, I think I would try grinding some off the top of the shell holder. Keep going until you get brass to fit, at some point it will. It will cost you the price of a shell holder, but I think it would be a fun experment. Also, check to see it is the proper shell holder. Larry

~Ace~ · « **Reply #37 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:07:37 PM »

stimpylu32, Aside from the Latch engaging right, it closing TIGHT on a .002 feeler guage and Very snug on a .001, What other point could the fit be wrong ? or how else can I measure ?

Ireload2, I have not tried it without pulling past the expander, but I will try it.

trotterlg
I may try it if a normal file will eat her. It's the shell holder that came with the die set, but thats a thought, I'll try and see which one (Lee) it's supose to be.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #38 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:14:07 PM »

Shell holders are hardened, you'll have to heat it red hot and let it air cool to anneal it to cut it with a file, or just flat grind it. I flat wet sand them on emery paper to keep them as true as possible, you only need to remove a couple thousandths to make a difference. I've cut the collar off several of them to use in the Lee Autoprime, they're hard!! $:-\$

You said you have an "O" press, if it's aluminum, it may flex enough that it may be causing the problem when you try to push the shoulder back, cutting a shell holder down should help that issue too.... hopefully.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #39 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:26:44 PM »

Ace

Take a look at this it may help . Lee says that if the die is wrong that they will fix it for you , just scrole down to the line that says FL sizing dei ajustment .

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

As for the barrel , i had kinda the same problem with another one that i had , it would fit all the specs during a dry close , but when i would fire the rifle the gap would get wider almost ,005 as near as i could cal. it was from a incomplete lug / pivot engagement .

stimpy

~Ace~ · « **Reply #40 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:36:39 PM »

How did you cure it, stimpylu32 ?

quickdtoo, I get the shell holder to touch, Barely.. it's not like i can with the .223 or .270

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #41 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:44:45 PM »

Ace

I had to file on the lug to true it up and then install a shim , the way to check is to smoke the lug at the pivot point and check it with a dry close , then smoke it again and fire , check to see if you are getting more of the soot removed after you shoot and at what points on the lug pivot .

stimpy

trotterlg · « **Reply #42 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:45:10 PM »

Quote

If you note that your Lee Die don't appear to push the shoulder of your case back, ensure that you are adjusting the die so that there is no daylight between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die during the sizing process. If you see daylight at the top of the stroke, readjust the die downward and repeat sizing until it disappears. If your case is still difficult to chamber, you can send the die back to us with a sized case and we can modify the die to minimum SAAMI specifications.

They do seem to have had that problem before. Larry

cwlongshot · « **Reply #43 on:** July 08, 2007, 04:28:48 PM »

I don't want to start a

but... Maybe try another MFG...any other.

Its no great secret I am not in love with Lee products.

I know guys like them and have had good luck with them... I appreciate that, but I haven't.

CW

trotterlg · « **Reply #44 on:** July 08, 2007, 04:34:52 PM »

Very well could be that this is one of the very rare Handi barrels with a minimum sized chamber. This would be a good thing if you have proper dies to go with it. Larry

Mac11700 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 08, 2007, 05:52:04 PM »

I think Larry & CW are correct...I never thought about it..but my 243 bull barrel was a minimum spec'd chamber..as is my CVA Elite...I too am not a fan of most all of Lee products..but..they do work..and usually don't have this kind of problem...Before I tried any filing on a shell holder..I would try a different brand and see if it still did the same thing..A set of small base dies might be the ticket if the chamber is spec'd real tight...http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/productview?saleitemid=434435&t=11082005...and like Larry said...it would be a very good thing indeed if this is the case...

Mac

~Ace~ · « **Reply #46 on:** July 08, 2007, 05:58:16 PM »

OK...

The Barrel... I put a case in that Fit and got to looking, the face of the barrel was Bowl shaped, concave to the chamber, not alot, but enough... So I got a file out and wacked at it a while, the inner 2/3 you can still see paint in the factory machine marks, fading to all new on the outside, I then checked fit and it was still well withen specs, so I shot a couple... They all fit back in the chamber

The Brass.... The ones that had been to big I Re-Sized and they were still to big, of course, so I annealed the shell holder and removed a little, Presto, they fit... so I removed a tad more

I think the Barrel was concave just enough, and the die / Press / Shell holder out just enough to add up to the problem, had either not needed a lil massaging, I don't think it would have become a problem. Now to work on the 4" Groups !

Thanks Everyone who replied, this site and most importantly the members of this forum Rock !

quickdtoo · « **Reply #47 on:** July 08, 2007, 06:21:32 PM »

Glad ya got a handle on it, making sure the barrel face is flat is the first step in fitting.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #48 on:** July 09, 2007, 01:36:10 AM »

Glad you where able to get to the bottom of it!!!

CW

mdi · « **Reply #49 on:** July 09, 2007, 08:45:13 AM »

I have limited rifle reloading experience, so use or disregard this

. Have you thought of making a casting on the chamber? If for some reason the chamber is out of round (?) or cut improperly the fired cases may be stretched in ways full length resizing won't help. I would mic several of the cases thoroughly (ALL possible dimensions), check for concentricity. Fire several and compare to the "once fired - resized but-not-in-your-dies cases"

FWIW...

dw06 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 09, 2007, 09:17:47 AM »

Glad to hear you found the problem!Had me stumped.

You got to admit these guys will jump in and try to help a fellow out.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #51 on:** July 09, 2007, 09:42:05 AM »

Loaded some this morn, 37 grains Varget pushing 75 grain V-Max, first group just over 1" fired back to back, second just under 1" allowing about 2 min between shots. 3'd had a flier, but the Barrel was getting real warm. ~Ace~

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #52 on:** July 09, 2007, 11:14:55 AM »

Ace

Now thats way better that the 4" patterns , with the right bullet/powder combo that thing should be hitting about 1/2" groups .

stimpy

Mac11700 · « **Reply #53 on:** July 09, 2007, 01:39:01 PM »

Good Going...

Sounds like you'll have it where you want it in no time,,

Mac