Specially made ammo for the .353 Casull only??

[Wiking]

A guy at the range told me that Cor-bon manufactures .357 mag ammo, that is to be fired only in the FA model 83! After doing some research on the Internet all I could find was this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_2000_Annual/ai_61620979/pg_8


However, the only info it contains is the type, weight and the velocity of the projectile! Does anybody in here know more about this ammo?? And, am I right to assume that equally powerful ammo for the .353 Casull can be made at home??
I called 3 local gun dealers in Denmark... all of'em thought I'd lost my mind, cause "Why couldn't I settle for Magtech?"!
 

[Silvertp]

Ive never heard of .357 Mag ammo made for a Casull / Freedom  arms 83 only.  Then again Ive never heard of a .353 Casull.   

Also hard for me to imagine a revolver ammo that could only be fired in one brand revolver.  There are some stout handguns out there, Ruger being one of them, that can digest some very heavy loads.  I can't say for certain that you didn't get bad info from the guy that told you this but doesn't make sense to me.

Also, rest assured you can handload some "maximum" pressure loads at home as well.  Your handloads  may not equal the commercial load that your friend described (if it exists), as manufacturers have access to powder normally not available to handloaders at the local sporting goods stores.

Good luck on figuring this out.

Silvertp

[Graybeard]

Many people seem to think it's OK to load the FA353 to insane pressure levels because of the strength of the revolver. I think this all stemmed from a single magazine article by a writer whose name I don't recall way back when the gun was first introduced. It is true that the FA353 is the same as the FA83 which is chambered for the .454 Casull and .475 L and such but the cases are still just .357 magnum cases and were never intended for such pressures as the .454 Casull runs. Sure they might hold up to it or they might not. Do you REALLY want to chance it just to get a few more fps from a .357 magnum? To me it's foolish. Sure you can safely (I think) load up to the level of the old original .357 magnum loads for it in most any modern .357 magnum case but I'd not wanna run them up to the 65,000-70,000 level that you are thinking of here.

[Wiking]

Greybeard.

Well... strange as it is, we danes are not allowed to own anything bigger than a .357 mag due to our very strict law on handguns. And what is a guy like me to do, when he loves big-bore handguns that has a lot of knockdown force?? Of course I would have a .454 if I could. So for someone like me, the only opportunity left is to get heavy .357 loads! The article I linked to above, mentions these cor-bon loads.

I'm not really into all this talk about pressures. When you say pressures at 60.000 - 75.000 how much is that compared to a normal factory .357 load?? 

[Graybeard]

It's at least DOUBLE current factory load levels.

In your case what you really need is not more velocity but more bullet weight. To improve the effectiveness of the .357 Magnum use bullets of 180-200 grains in weight and cast are better than jacketed in this case.

The old original standard for the .357 Magnum when it first came out was a 158 grain bullet at 1550 fps. Today it seems to have been dropped to a 125 at 1250-1300 fps. Quite a drop in power level and effectiveness. I see no reason why it wouldn't be safe to duplicate the original specs for the round using modern cases and the strong FA gun. That in effect almost gives it the same power level from your FA as today's loads deliver from a rifle.

Select a good 180-200 grain cast bullet with as wide a meplat as you can locate and load them to full max book levels. If you can find loads for the Thompson Contender or for rifles those loads "might" be a bit hotter than the ones listed for revolvers. If not you might ask FA if they have load data speicificall for it. I'm not gonna quote you any hot loads on here personally but if you are a knowledgeable reloader you should have an idea how to warm them a bit over current load levels.

I think the old pressure standard was around 42,000 and has been dropped down now to closer to 30,000 but I'm not sure the numbers are precise but are close. The .454 Casull operates at about 65,000. We can talk psi or cup as you wish and there is a bit of difference. Some use one some the other but for our discussion here both are close enough that you get the idea.

[tuckerdog1]

This may be the article Graybeard was thinking about.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt353.htm

Tuckerdog1

[Ken ONeill]

Yes, I'm sure that is the article. John is the only person I know who's touted that level of performance in the FA 353, using N-110, but I can tell you that my 9" Mdl. 353 (they're now simply called Mdl. 83's) seems bull strong and is extraordinarily accurate. In my view a 180 @ about 1400 fps in a 353 is still sane in that gun and plenty powerful. Even at 100 fps less, it's a well proven deer killer.
At these levels, my brass has had very good life, and I believe the gun will last for many years.
I don't know if Cor-Bon still loads that level of .357 ammo, but you won't find any factory ammo any stronger than Pete's.

[Wiking]

Yeah I know this article... I've read it several times. Would you call the loads in this article irresponsible or are they quite okay?? Has anyone tried them, or loads like them??

[Sverre A.]

"what is a guy like me to do, when he loves big-bore handguns that has a lot of knockdown force??"

Hmm!

Hire a boat - and escape to Norway?
But you will not be allowed to shoot anything than steel- and papertargets 

[Wiking]

Sverre...

In Denmark we are not even allowed to shoot at steel targets! AND... the sons of b...... in the government are even trying to ban IPSC from our program, as they find the discipline "morally destructive"!

[Steve P]

You can load up the 353 to some extreme loads, but do you need them?

Current manufacturers, with some exception, are only loading up their ammo to pressures that the old original 357 handguns can safely handle today.  Compare modern ammo specs with some of the older reloading manuals and you will see the decline in pressures and velocity.

I have many 357s.  Loads that shoot exceptional in my Ruger BH will back right out of the cylinder in my Colt Trooper and just lock that cylinder up tight.  I have loads for the Trooper that will shoot 1" groups at 50 yards that will lock up my S&W Model 19.  You have to tailor your loads to the gun.

I have a 353 that I shoot in silhouette competition.  Compared to my 44 mag, 41 mag, and 357 sm, the load seems relatively mild.  I am using a 200gr LBT WFN bullet with WSR primers and AA#9 powder.   I actually have two different loads that are 1.0 grains appart.  Both are accurate, but the lighter load gets the job done with a little less recoil.  If I am not worried about stubborn rams, I use the lighter load.

Some of the main differences between these revolvers:  There is NO room for the brass to back out of the 353 cylinder.  The 353 has about a .002" gap between cylinder and barrel.  Using a gas check bullet, I get minimal fouling and have no problem with soot or residue build up until after 50+ rounds.  The WSR primers have a harder cup and do not flow around the firing pin or firing pin hole.  Each and every cartridge and fired brass was carefully inspected as I worked up to my load.   I only shoot loads tailored for the 353 in the 353. 

My loads for the 353 have no signs of pressure.  I have never split a case and only have extraction problems if I do not keep the cylinder clean every 3-4 silhouette matches.  (minimum 45 rounds fired at each match.)  A loaded round falls out and I only partially size the case.  Most fired brass drop right out until I am getting to that point where it's time to clean.

I have not shot loads per the article referenced above, BUT, I do load my own, have worked them up safely, am showing no physical signs of pressure, and I am not very far off from the loads listed in that article.

You have to put safety first, accuracy second.

Steve   

[Graybeard]

My loads for the 353 have no signs of pressure. 

BUT, I do load my own, have worked them up safely, am showing no physical signs of pressure,

Do the bullets leave the barrel? Sorry that's an EXCELLENT sign of pressure so it sounds to me like you've got pressure. AND there are NO reliable pressure indicators to tell you when pressures become excessive. That's an old wive's tale we've gone round and round on here many times.

The whole rub is know what is "too much". In the case of the FA the gun is up to way more than the case is and quite honestly I don't know just what the case is up to and none of us without pressure measuring equipment have a clue what pressures we're running.

But rest assured you ARE GETTING PRESSURE it's just a matter of how much.

[Dusty Miller]

This suggestion may convince some of you that ole' Dusty has slipped a cog in his program but I'm wonder'n if it'd be feasible to re-chamber a Model 83 .357 mag to a .357 maximum?  Out of a 14" barrel (T/C Contender) that cartridge will launch a 180 gr. JSP in excess of 1800 fps.  A minimum load of AA1680 will give you 1720 fps. 

[Wiking]

Now THAT'S the kinda talk I like to hear!!!

[Dusty Miller]

Well, is it feasible?

[Graybeard]

Short answer. NO.

[STJ]

Not really.  The model 83 cylinder is 1.786" long.  The 357 Max case is 1.605" long...doesn't leave much room for a bullet....You shouldn't have an issue with 357 mag brass blowing out on you in a FA if you load to +P 357mag.  The cylinder chambers are tight and therefor the brass won't expand enough to cause issues.  Keep in mind that FA frames for 357 and 44mag are of a different temper than the ones for 454 and 475 (That is why they are a tad bit cheaper).  They are not designed to take the same force.  Being that the 357 has a smaller case head diameter than the 454 or 475, it is not exerting as much overall force to the frame and if you load to 454 pressures the frame will not be subjected to as much 'stretching' force so you SHOULD be ok.

Your two best options are to 1. call Freedom Arms and 2. work up your own loads.

You are not going to find too much published 357 FA only loads.  I ran into the same issue with my M97 44sp.  99% of the loads out there are for original low power loads.  There were a couple good articles by Tafflin and Pierce but there max loads are still a little light IMO.  I have worked up a few loads for the 44sp that throws a 300 grain bullet 1250fps + in a 4.25" barrel.  Thats a lot of whomp for that little gun.  The gun and brass are fine with 1000 rounds through the gun and 5+ reloads with brass.

I say this to state you are entering territory not many people have ventured and therefor you are going to have to do some of your own foot work.

[Shootist Elite]

As to if this particular ammunition ever existed from Cor-Bon it did. I purchased some of this ammunition some years back. And yes, it was stated on the box to be fired only in the Casull Model 353 .357 Mag only. In fact if memory serves me correct you had to prove to them that you owned one in order to purchase it. It's been awhile since I fired the remainder of that ammunition but it definitely had some zip to it. It was a 180 grain bullet. I had a fellow run it through a cronograph and if "memory serves me correct" it was moving well in excess of 1600fps out of a 9" barrel. The accuracy was okay but nothing great. I think the best I was able to do was somewhere around 4" at 50yds for 5 rounds and that was with an optical sight. That particular handgun was easily capable of sub 2" with other ammunition it liked. I had it happen on one occasion where it actually blew the back of the primer out into the firing pin hole. Thats not something I would want to have happen again especially during hunting. It never hurt the revolver and it works and shoots as well today as it ever did. I personally wouldn't buy that ammunition again, it just wasn't worth it in my opinion