Author Topic: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads  (Read 978 times)

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Offline roundball

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Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« on: August 18, 2007, 06:27:40 AM »
August 18, 2007 - .62cal Cushion Wad Range Report

Muzzleloader:
GM .62cal (.20ga) Flint Smoothbore drop-in barrel on a TC Hawken stock (Barrel Jug Choked ‘Improved Cylinder PLUS’)

80grns Goex 3F
1 full Circle Fly prelubed cushion wad
90grns chilled #6s (1+1/4oz)
Circle Fly OS card

Outstanding 30" pattern at both 25 & 30 yards tested. Excellent load for crows, late season doves, long range squirrels, etc.

NOTE 1:
1/2 of a cushion wad was OK…patterns were usable, but slightly thinner than with a full cushion wad

NOTE 2:
Tried 90grns 2F instead of 80grns 3F, patterns were unacceptable, 3F is perfect
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline roundball

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2007, 11:48:19 AM »
NOTE 1:
1/2 of a cushion wad was OK…patterns were usable, but slightly thinner than with a full cushion wad

Clarification in case you may not be aware of it:

Having a Jug Choke in a barrel causes the opposite effect when using different amounts of cushion wads.

Normally in a smoothbore, too large of a cushion wad tends to thin out a pattern...often a half wad, a smaller amount of wad, will give a tighter pattern than a full wad...but just the opposite when there's a Jug Choke involved.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline rex6666

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 04:28:51 AM »
my goodness ROUNDBALL i am still tring to get one bullet to come out the end of the
barrel headed in the right direction.
what is a jug choke.
Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

Texas is good for men and dogs, but it is hell on women and horses.

Offline roundball

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 01:50:27 PM »
Chokes as we think of them today are "constrictions" at the end of a barrel...either a permanent part of the barrel design or screw-in chokes.

But before modern chokes were invented it was discovered that a "choke effect" could be produced in a cylinder bore barrel by actually honing out an enlarged section of the bore as an "expansion chamber"...the expansion chamber is a couple inches long ending about an inch short of the muzzle.

In a .62cal/.20ga cylinder bore, .016" enlargement for an expansion chamber produces a choke effect slightly tighter than Improved Cylinder.....030" gives a Full choke effect.

The gunsmith explained that when the shot charge reaches the expansion chamber, the outer layers expand and start slowing down but the central core of shot continues ahead at full speed.

Then the outer layers of shot get constricted back down by the taper from the expansion chamber back down to the original cylinder bore size, and in so doing, produces an effect of a choke, without there being any actual physical choke there at all.

I wish I understood it more precisely, and I wish there was more written about it on the Internet but there's not much out there and only a few gunsmiths loeft that have the machine shop equipment and know how to make them like they did 'back in the day'...a vanishing skill.

The bottom line is a Jug Choke produces results just like modern physical chokes...one of my .62cal/.20ga barrels is Jug Choked 'Full' as a turkey & trap barrel and my turkey load averages 16 #6s pellets in a 3.5" tuna can at 40 yards...using head shots this spring I dropped one turkey at 40yds and another at 30yds...also excellent for trap targets.

This other barrel I had Jug Choked "Improved Cylinder PLUS" for doves, crows, etc...also excellent on skeet targets...this recent experiment was just to verify I'd be able to shoot repeatedly without wiping between shots on a skeet or dove field.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 02:14:01 PM »
There are a few descriptions of what a jug choke is, here are a few. ;)

Tim

Quote
A special type of choke, the 'jug' choke, can be done to cylinder bore barrels, and this is a very efficient choke. It consists of a precisely shaped widening of a short section of the bore just behind the muzzle, achieved by removing metal. Since the smallest diameter of the cylinder bore is not decreased, but only increased in that one area, no difficulty is encountered in ramming wads down, yet the gun will shoot with the best of the modern chokes. This is a custom gunsmithing job, and has never been offered on any commercial replica.
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/shotgun.html

Quote
A method of choking called ‘jug choking’ has long been used to improve shotgun performance - by enlarging the bore for a short length just behind the muzzle. The shot column expands into this area and is then constricted again at the muzzle. Thus, a fixed choke shotgun with fairly open chokes could be converted to a tighter choked option by jug choking. This would not interfere with the original muzzle configuration.
http://www.ssaa.org.au/newssaa/101-StoriesReviews/shotguns/chokes.html

And SAAMI's definition:

Quote
CHOKE, JUG
A type of shotgun barrel choke, wherein a slight recess is formed in the bore approximately one inch behind the muzzle. The recess causes the shot to gather before leaving the muzzle resulting in a denser pattern.
http://saami.org/Glossary/display.cfm?letter=C
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Offline roundball

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2007, 04:06:59 PM »
Right...and none of them even explain as much detail as I did after talking to the gunsmith...I would like to find the ultimate explanation of HOW...HOW does a Jug Choke design create dynamics that produce a "choke" effect on the shot...which, after all is said and done, is still exiting a wide open cylinder bore muzzle...there must be a whole lot of mojo going on in that couple of inches.

One of the best $65 dollars I've spent in muzzleloading...imagine, a .20ga, shooting blackpowder, NO PLASTIC SHOTCUP, producing a longe range turkey pattern as good as a modern .12ga turkey load that has all the benefits of plastic shot cups and super full mechanical constriction chokes...those guys back in the old days were definitely not dummies... ;D
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2007, 04:44:31 PM »
Midway's explaination is they use an expanding reamer, probably similar to how a tailpipe expander works. I would also venture to guess that the concept is similar to a backbored shotgun barrel, maybe the jug choke is just a shortened version of a backbore!! :D

Tim

Definition for "jug choke" : A type of shotgun barrel constriction used on a barrel that either does not have a choke, or that has had the choke or choke thread portion cut off. Using an expanding reamer, a small area of the bore is recessed about one to two inches back from the muzzle. When fired, the shot pellets will tend to bunch up at area of slightly larger diameter, be constricted again the remaining bore of the original diameter and pattern in a slightly tighter formation.   
   
http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=2956

No. 9
 What Is Backboring?
I keep seeing the term backboring used in describing shotgun barrels, but I’m not sure I fully understand what it means. Can you explain it and any benefit it offers?

Also called overboring, backboring simply means that the bore diameter of a barrel exceeds what has long been the industry standard. Depending on whose chart you believe, .729 to .730 inch is standard for the 12 gauge while the bore diameter of a backbored barrel usually measures from .735 to .740 inch and sometimes a bit larger. As for any major benefit, some shooters are convinced that backboring along with lengthening of the forcing cone of a barrel reduces recoil, and while I don’t believe this has been proven to be true scientifically, I am sold on the concept. The idea of backboring a shotgun barrel is a very old one, but it did not prove to be entirely practical until the introduction of the modern plastic wad with a flanged overpowder cup capable of obturating sufficiently to seal off the oversized bore.


http://hunting.about.com/od/shotgun/l/aastshotgunfaqa.htm

In this thread at The Firing Line in their gunsmithing forum, Jim Keenan refers to backboring as jug choking, so it appears the length of the "jug choke" is the difference, two similar techniques that achieve similar effect on the shot.

https://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-210216.html
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Offline roundball

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2007, 04:01:51 AM »
And that's good but as you see, none of them actually EXPLAIN the dynamics of the physics involved...none explain HOW or WHAT is the actual activity that occurs, which produces a full choke effect in spite of the last thing that happens to the shot charge which is to exit a muzzle that is still wide open cylinder bore dimension.

I've wondered if it's a simple as this:

The gunsmith said that the outer layers of shot expand and start to slow down when the column enters the expansion chamber and that the central mass continues on forward at regular speed, and begins to get ahead of the slower shot.

To me, if that happens, then when the expansion chamber's tapered cone forces the outer layers of slower shot back down to cylinder bore size, the shot is being merged into the rear of the main centralized shot charge before muzzle exit.

He made a statement that this "makes the shot "squirt" out of the muzzle like a fire hose"...an interesting statement but still not clear on how that makes a tighter pattern...but, after rattling this around in my head the one thing I keep coming back to is this:

As the slower shot goes through the tapered forcing cone from the expansion chamber to cylinder bore size again, it has to accelerate and at the same time is getting jammed into/onto the rear of the central shot charge core as it's passing by...and makes for a longer shot string...less pellets in the front to veer off opening up the pattern, more shot strung out behind in the center line continuing along from behind making a tighter centralized pattern of shot at the target.

Dunno...just trying to figure out the HOW.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2007, 04:08:32 AM »
Sounds good to me!! ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline rex6666

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2007, 05:16:17 AM »
i don't know much about how this works but i have a thought.
if the barrel is bigger in one short area and lets the shot expand, then chokes down
again the shot that has expanded into the larger area should be thrown back toward the other side of the barrel when it comes out of the epanded area, this would happen all the way around the barrel, causing a smaller shot pattern, does that make ANY sense?
Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

Texas is good for men and dogs, but it is hell on women and horses.

Offline roundball

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2007, 06:16:31 AM »
Tim...you may have introduced an idea here...the similarity to my Remington trap gun's 'backbored' barrel...maybe I can find somebody at Remington who can explain the physics of a backbore and equate it to a Jug choke.

Interesting Fact if you don't already know this:

My Remington 1187 Trap gun with it's backbored barrel came with 3 screw in chokes labeled something like Full, Extra-Full, and Super-Full...but sitting around one day I got to comparing them to my normal IC, Modified, and Full choke tubes from my standard 1187 and thought that they looked the same...got out the dial calipers and mic'ed them...identical...IC was the same as the new Full, Modified was the same as the new Extra Full, and Full was the same as the new Super Full.

Called and discussed it with the Remington Service Manager and he said yes, they're identical...and it was because of the effect created by the back-boring...ie: that THE BACKBORE ALONG WITH ONLY AN IC CHOKE TUBE, CREATED A FULL CHOKE EFFECT.
Sounds FAMILIAR...A Jug Choke (backbore) in my cylinder bore (cylinder choke) barrel.

(Remington literally used an IC tube renamed to Full for the 1187 Trap, and so on with the other tubes)

So this discussion has moved the ball forward some...I'll approach it from the 'backbore' angle and see what that turns up...thanks !

"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report: .62cal Circle Fly prelubed cushion wads
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2007, 06:54:56 AM »
Good line of thinking!!

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain