Pros & Cons of 280 Ackley

[Dusty Wheeler]

I need some direction...  I've got the hots and cash for a new rifle!!!  I'm thinking about a 280 Ackley Improved for a long range deer/elk rifle.  I don't like a bunch of recoil so I'm not interested in the magnums but have read that the 280 AI gives similar performance to the 7mm Rem Mag with less recoil.  A 'standard' 280 Rem would do fine but I'm wondering if the AI version is enough better to be worthwhile.  Thanks, Tim

[LaOtto222]

I do not have one, but Quickdtoo (Tim) has one in a Handi Rifle. He will probably be along this afternoon (he usually is). If I remember correctly he said that the 280 AI has noticeably higher recoil that a standard 280. BTW you can purchase 280 AI brass through Nosler at about $54/50 or so.

[Graybeard]

I've long wanted one but just not yet badly enough to do anything about it. Now with Nosler offered both loaded ammo and correctly headstamped cases seems an ideal time to do something about it really.

You'll gain a bit of case life with the AI but is that of any real value? I doubt it as I've never noticed a problem with case life in standard rounds if you don't load over max pressures. You can gain perhaps 100-150 fps at similar pressures over the parent case but then you can gain that much in the parent case by loading it to the same pressures as the .270 Winchester. The SAAMI pressures on the .280 are lower due to it being loaded early on for the Remington pump and semiauto rifles.

I'm quite partial to the 7MM bore size and the bullets available for it sure are nice. I could do find loading the Nosler PT and AB and the Hornady IB bullets in 154 and 160 grain weights for about all my needs.

Remington has the .280 Remington in its LSS Mtn. Rifle line this year. I'm just waiting on one to hit the racks at my local gun store to come home with one. Whether I'll leave it as is or have it converted to AI is the only real decision to make.

[wncchester]

Personal opinion only, but P.O. himself agreed with me, that most of the improved cartridges were best used with heavy-for-caliber bullets.  Meaning, more the more common and useful  bullet weights, such as the 140-150 gr. bullets will see little benefit from the increased case volume of .280 AI.   IF you expect to load a lot of heavy bullets, the change will do you some good, otherwise .... not.  Since the .280 is an excellent performer as it is I would use the factory version and load it with premium bullets on those few occasions I might want deeper  penetration.

[quickdtoo]

If you compare Nosler's or Hodgdon's data between the 280 Rem and the 280 Improved, there's only about 50-100fps to be gained with just about any bullet and powder combination over the parent cartridge using their data. I'm not able to realize the full potential of my improved-improved(no barrel set back after rechambering) H&R due to frame strength limits, but in a good bolt gun that would be a different story. The main issue with an improved-improved chamber is factory ammo can't be used in it, it's a handload only chambering, but a little more velocity can be gained that way over the standard 280 Improved, fire formed case capacity over the factory Nosler 280 Improved brass in mine is .9gr water.

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[Dusty Wheeler]

I looked at the Hodgdon's data and compared the 280 Rem and the AI and it seemed to me that the 280 Rem, even though it was loaded to lower pressures, was very close to the AI version.  One of the problems with reading lots is that you sometimes get less than accurate info.  I had been under the impression that the AI gave considerablly more velocity and, at least in Hodgdon's, it doesn't seem to be the case--unless I am missing something.  Thanks for the help.

[jhalcott]

  In a 7mm JRS wild cat that is similar to the 280AI ,but with a shorter neck, I did not get as much as I thought I would. Same barrel and action for both.  Unless I pushed the gun to it's limits velocity was only a 100 to 125 fps faster. This is Jon Sundra's baby.and he claimed nearer to 7mm Rem mag ballistics. Dunno! Maybe MY barrel was wore out before the "improvement " was made!

[Silvertp]

Here's what P.O. has to say about the .280 Improved in his Volume 1 Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders  "For shooters wishing to get the top velocity of a 7mm cartridge, this could be a good choice since it is still possible to use the factory ammunition in the Improved chamber."  ... "It will be quickly noticed that there is very little difference between the top velocities for the .280 Improved, and the Magnums, plainly demonstrating that there is little advantage in using a belted Magnum case, for anything under.30 caliber."

At that time RCBS provided data showing a 140 gr. bullet at 3320 fps and a 154 gr. bullet at over 3000 fps, both loads utilizing 4350 powder.

Pros:  Would provide an excellent "all round" big game caliber for hunting north america, or anywhere eles on the planet, provided you don't pick on a few of africa's biggest..   Has less recoil than the bigger magnums.  Uses excellent 7mm bullets.  Is not like an "06 that everyone has 2 or 3 of".  Just saying Ackley Improved...is cool and nostalgic at the same time.  Is factory chambered in the excellent Nosler rifle for 2007.  Nosler 280 AI brass is wt. sorted and prepped and ready for reloading  OR  You can have a blast "improving" your own cartridge cases.

Cons:  Uses a few more grains of powder than a .280 Rem. to get the improved performance.  May have a "bit" more recoil that may be of consequence to some folks.  Nosler rifles and brass cost more than Rugers rifles and Remington Brass.  If not a Nosler Rifle...cost for "rechambering / rebarreling" to a .280 AI could be spent shooting or hunting.

Recommendation:  Buy with your heart.  If you want a .280 Ackley, it is a wonderful cartridge...buy it. And get it in the rifle model that you want, or have it custom built, or rechamber one of your other rifles that your not using.   Will you be able to kill any critters with it that you couldn't harvest with a .280 (or .270, or 30/06, or .....well, probably not, at least not within generally accepted hunting range.   

Previous advice is free and worth every-bit of what it costs. 

Silvertp

[Graybeard]

PO had no pressure testing equipment and in many cases used loads that grossly exceeded the SAAMI pressure limits of the parent case to get his gains. You can do that too in both the AI and parent cases IF you want to run the risks. Most manuals like the Nosler that lists .280 AI data I think still use the SAAMI data for the parent case which means not so much gain as if you moved it up to the standard for more modern pressures like the .270 Winchester or for the magnums belted or otherwise. Shot in the same guns those pressures should be safe but without pressure testing equipment or pressure tested loads there is no way to be sure when you get there or when you go WAY past there.

If you're wanting to maximize without going to a magnum then the .280 JDJ is about as max as you can get and he supplies safe loading data for it. It is the standard .280 case blown out to the absolute max and the neck shortened to the bare minimum.

If I decide to go the AI route it will be more because it's something I've long wanted than because of the real world gain it can give me.

[quickdtoo]

The Speer #13 is a little more optimistic with their data, their test gun is also a 26" barreled Savage 116 compared to Nosler's 24" Wiseman. They show top velocities of 150-200fps better than the parent cartridge. This is their remark on the cartridge.

In comparing a few such conversions, you will find that some deliver a surprising good return while others don't do quite as well. In still others they are little more than a waste of time. The factors that determine just how much "improvement" these is to an Improved case revolve around body taper and shoulder angle. By this criteria, the 280 Remington qualifies as a fair improvement.

Tim

[beemanbeme]

With the exception of the Bob, I think the real world attraction of the AI is it's fairly easy to accomplish, to non-gun nuts it sounds exotic, and you can say "I have something different".  If the .280AI tries real hard, it can match a big 7 shooting factory ammo.  At what kinda stress, I don't know.  I like my .280 but I can't think of a single thing I've done with it that another 150fps would have changed.  But like the fellow that kissed the cow................. 

[roper]

 
One of the problems has always been published data for the 280AI.  IMR has some using Nosler brass at around 61,000psi about what the short mag are.  My Kreiger barrel 280AI if I use Nolser data I seem to get a higher velocity that what is published but I think some of that is in the barrel.  I've got two older Wiseman barrels when he teamed up with McMillian and those barrel are alittle slow.  In Ackley Handbook Vol 1 the data for the 280AI came from RCBS in their new modern laboratory.
 
http://www.jarrettrifles.com/280AckleyImproved.html  

I just started to reloading some Barnes 150grTSX for the 280AI and I'm going to try some 160 TSX also then I'll chronograph them and see how they compare to the 7mag.

I purchase some Nosler 280AI brass but haven't shoot any in my rifle as I had plenty of cases fireformed but I want to see if there was any difference in case capacity and if they would chamber in my rifle.  They chamber just fine in my rifle and case capacity was within 2/10 of a gr.  With 150gr bullets for the 280AI you can get around 3050fps plus minus with max loads between 60/63gr of powder.

I shot the 7mm Express before having a 280AI build and glad I did.  Well good luck

[Dusty Wheeler]

OK pards.  There may be no real gain or logic but I WANT the AI, guess I've wanted one for quite a while.  Thanks for the help!
Tim

[steve4102]

  Hey Dusty,  If you want one, go for it.  I am sure you will love it.  A few fps and ability to shoot heavier bullets with a bit more energy is a good enough reason to me.  In fact, I just sent my old Rem 700 30-06 off the the Gunsmith for a AI conversion.  Do I need it, no, I have a couple of 30 cal magnums in the safe now.  Do I want it, yes, something different to play with and I am kinda tired of my boring old 30-06.  Enjoy!