Help Please !!

[goldhound56]

 I got a H&R Huntsman 12 ga. muzzle loader this past Sat. at a gun show . The gun has never been shot ! What I need help with is a Owner's Manual and  plug wrench . I 'm looking for one to buy , i would take a photocopy of the owner's manual . If you can help me with this e-mail me at kennynelson@bellsouth.net or post here .                                     


                                                        Thanks Kenny

[Keith Lewis]

I did not know they made a 12 ga. muzzleloader??  Contact H&R at 1-866-776-9292 and they will send you a manual and sell you a breechplug wrench as well as any other items that you might need. If mounting a scope get the scope base from them also as some aftermarket bases fit but do not have the correct spacing for all scope locations that the factory base has. It has been mentioned that there is a special tool (not sure what it is called) that Sears sells that will work for removing the breechplug as well as the stock item. The stock item is at best a poor design. 

[goldhound56]

 I've seen two 12 ga. , the one i have and one at a local gun shop , that's i've put my hands on . I've seen one or two on auctions for sell .



    I also have a .45 cal Huntsman and trying to talk my Uncle out of his  .58 he has never shot I think he's had about 30 years .

[goldhound56]

 Keith , Thanks I called they have both and are sending them free !!!

[Jal5]

"It has been mentioned that there is a special tool (not sure what it is called) that Sears sells that will work for removing the breechplug as well as the stock item. The stock item is at best a poor design.  "

I think that was a lag socket, fits on a small socket wrench set, basically a socket with a flat head screwdriver top that fits the breechplug almost perfectly and you can get enough torque on it by means of the socket handle. Sears tool catalogue- came in a set of three different size sockets, one I use for my Sidekick, one for a special application on my boat, the other I haven't found a use for...yet!

[goldhound56]

Jal5 , can you post a photo ?

[Busta]

Guys,

The 12 ga H&R Huntsman (NOT NEF) was made from 1972-1979, the same time as the .45 and .58 calibers were. Unless H&R/NEF (Marlin) have saved some of the old manuals and breech plug wrenches from that era, he won't know any more than he does now. The newer NEF Huntsmans came out about 2002 and the breech plug wrench is totally different than the old style.

goldhound56,

Your 12 ga might have a push in plug with o-ring? The early ones had screw in plugs, the later ones had push in plugs. If yours is a screw in, you may have to make your own tool. Since it has never been fired, the plug should come out easy, whatever the style. If you have a wood dowel you could push out a push-in plug. If the plug has two holes in it, you may be able to unscrew it with two pins welded to a T-Handle. Good luck with Customer Service, I truly hope they had what you needed.

Just a word of caution, if your has a push in plug, be very careful not to open the breach if you have a mis-fire. This condition has been known to turn into a hang-fire as soon as the breach is opened the plug is shot rearward, and has caused serious bodily injury including death. Always attempt to re-fire the charge without opening the breach, if it fails to fire wait keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction. If and when you decide to open the breach, make sure you are not behind the gun, but off to the side. Just be aware of the danger involved with these types of plugs, it is real. Lots of these guns have been retired due to this condition, and it was the lawsuits because of these breach plugs that took down the old H&R, before NEF and Marlin.

A bit of information.
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/printthread.php?t=12937

[MSP Ret]

"as soon as the breach is opened the plug is shot rearward, and has caused serious bodily injury including death."                  ?

Death? I have stories and rumors of possible injuries but never a death, never even any substantiated reports of injuries, just rumors. If Goldhound56 or any other current owner of an unfired 12 gauge H&R muzzle loader or either a .45 or .58 cal ML does not want their gun or is worried about shooting it and wants to donate it or sell it to me I would be Happy to acquire it from them!!! Remember they are death traps waitng to happen and are not worth much....<><....

[Busta]

MSP Ret,

You never heard of the guy that worked for T/C that was killed by one of these plugs?

[goldhound56]

 The way you guys sound the best thing I can do for that gun is to put it in a meltting pot  ! Just kidding I may never shoot it , it may go to the wall or if MSP Ret. talks right it might move to his house ! Thanks to all that have taken time to tell me what you know about these guns .

[MSP Ret]

No Busta, I have never heard that rumor, but please pass it on, it would be a great story to check out to see if there is any truth to it. What was his name, when and where did it happen, and who can verify it? Was it about the time that TC came out with a ML barrel for their guns?....<><.... 

[Busta]

No Busta, I have never heard that rumor, but please pass it on, it would be a great story to check out to see if there is any truth to it. What was his name, when and where did it happen, and who can verify it? Was it about the time that TC came out with a ML barrel for their guns?....<><.... 

MSP Ret,

I am not an investigator, but I will give you what I know from reading.

The man was from New Hampshire (so is the T/C factory), and I think it happened in the mid-80'S.

I don't know this poster, but read the date, his e-mail address. I am guessing he is a professor at the University of New Hampshire from his e-mail addy, doubt it is still a valid e-mail, but it might be. Scroll down to FAQ #35.
http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-faq3.htm

Post #15
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217582

I know this isn't much, but I will try to get more information. I already lost this post 3 times, and my search data.

[EDIT]
I wish I could find my original information, but this guy might be able to tell you where to find it.

Scroll down to Pete Lester, he was the poster from 1996 in the first link I gave you and he is a Senior Grant/Contract Administrator in the Office of Sponsored Research at the University of New Hampshire. It has his title, phone #, new e-mail address. I'm sure he could tell you more than I can, and I doubt that he is pulling anybodies leg.
http://www.unh.edu/osr/misc/contact_us.html

http://www.unh.edu/osr/misc/team_areas.html

[Keith Lewis]

Whether anyone was killed or not I would be very cautious of using a push-in breechplug rifle. I think if I had it I would check the smokelessmuzzleloader site and see if they would fit a barrel to it. Even if you do not want to shoot smokeless powder in it the conversion gets you a barrel with a standard breechplug and eliminates the plastic carriers. I know on the older models NEF most likely will not fit a barrel. The other option for about the same money buy a Sidekick (just saw one at K-Mart for $138.00) probably a last one on sell out but almost bought it myself except I already have a Huntsman, Omega, three Whites, T/C Hawken with two barrels, Lyman flintlock, Underhammer pistol, Traditions pistol, and a Knight Rolling Block in the mail and no decent weather to shoot any of them (still 100 degrees here). Good luck with what you decide.

[PHATINJUN]

I to would be very happy to take any of these killer guns off your hands . I have a 1972 .58 that is a very sweet shooter . I think one fact that keeps getting left out of these stories is that the guns that may have injured folks were modified to allow the bbl to break over farther to allow the breech plug to be removed with out taking bbl off the frame. I have tried every which way to take my plug out with out taking it apart and it is not possible . Now that is fact . Even though I already have 3 muzzle loaders I am still looking for the 12GA and a .45. I have yet to have a misfire or hang fire and I attribute that to the powders and caps that are sold today. I believe that if you treat all your shooting with the same good shooting practices you have very little to worry about.Just follow the 10 or 12 safety tips and you are good to go. Kurt

[MSP Ret]

Hello again peanut, that's 2 of us that are willing to take those bad old H&R's off their hands. And thanks for the links Busta...<><....

[Busta]

Hello again peanut, that's 2 of us that are willing to take those bad old H&R's off their hands. And thanks for the links Busta...<><....

MSP Ret,

Your welcome, sorry I couldn't do better, but for the life of me I can't find where I read it originally. Been quite a few years. I am not saying that these are all bad, I would love to have a new unfired one also. I just felt it was my duty to caution goldhound56, since he is looking for a Owners Manual, and probably has limited information about it. What he does with it is his business, and if I had bought one I would hope that someone would caution me too. I am not saying that they all are a problem, just that there is the possibility since it has happened before. It would go along the same lines as someone buying a Ford Pinto, and not knowing that they can explode on impact. I know 4 people that got burned in one back in the mid-70's when they were rear-ended at a stop light. Thank God they all recovered, but do you think they would have chose a Pinto, knowing the possible dangers in advance?

[PHATINJUN]

Hey now Busta that is near blasphemy almost comparing H&R muzzleloaders with pinto's I just about have them no excuses dialed in Thanks. Kurt

[goldhound56]

 Busta , I would like to thank you for the heads up . If I do shoot it I will use a light load and any sign of a misfire I know what not to do thanks to you and others . I may put it on the wall or if someone makes a good trade offer for the 12 ga. or the 45 cal. they might have a new home . Keeping them is not written in stone . Thanks for you time to tell what you know these guns .


                             Thanks Kenny