Problem with 44 mag reloading

[blklabs]

I am reloading for my 44 mag.  I am using the Lyman's book and the load for the 300 gr cast bullet.  I am actually using the MBW 310 FN-GC-DC bullet.  I am loading it on the bottom crimp groove and the total overall length is 1.695 which the Lyman book says 1.7.  However, when I am loading the finished bullet into the chamber, it will not fully load.  It leaves about .1" of the brass outside the cylinder, on each and every cylinder.  The gun is a SBH Hunter.  I have tried just a sized brass, and it drops in the chamber perfectly.   

Now if I load it to the top crimp groove the bullet fits, but I am worried that I will change the pressure by doing so. 

Does anyone have a clue why the bullet will not fit?

[Graybeard]

Most likely it's due to the bullet diameter being too large just in front of the case to fit fully into your cylinder. That's the case with some bullets in my FA83 that will fit easily into my S&W 629. When it happens you really have only one choice other than giving up on that bullet and that is to seat it deeper into the case. BUT when you do you MUST reduce the powder charge. How much to reduce is the kicker. When I do that I drop 1.5 to 2.0 grains generally but you'll just have to take a look at how much you've reduced case capacity and figure it out for yourself unless you can find a published source giving data for it in that other crimp groove.

As a for instance the Hornady 300 XTP has two cannelures on it for crimping. I've used both at various times I lower my powder charge using H110/W296 a full two grains when I move to the upper from lower to alter the pressures back to about the same. I seem to get about equal velocity either way so assuming pressures are generally the same.

[blklabs]

Graybeard,
Thanks for the response.  I measured the bullet where the top of the case was and it measured .432.  I am assuming this is caused by the crimp?  I ordered them from MBW at .431, since my barrel measures .431.  Is there anything that can be done to open up the cylinder throats or do I just need to order .430 bullets.  However Dave said to order .001 bigger than bore size, for the best accuracy.  Thanks for all of the help!

[Graybeard]

It's not exactly that simplistic. The problem lies more in the shape of the bullet than the actual diameter to which it was sized. Shaving another .001" from the full length of bullet might or might not fix your problem. To know you'd have to measure the diameter of the inside of your cylinder chambers at the length where that major diameter ends and taper begins on the bullet's nose.

Yes the chambers can be opened but again you might or might not want to do that. Idealy your chamber throats should be the same as barrel diameter or a half thousanth larger so bullet is not swaged down on firing before entering the barrel. But if you open the throat too much you get leading.

IT is possible that bullet design is just not gonna work in your gun or maybe you can get by with it sized down that one more thousanth or by opening the chamber a wee bit more. I can't sit here and say for sure. Only you with gun, ammo and some measuring equipment in hand can do that.

I have some ammo loaded by a former sponsor of the site that works fine in my 629 but does exactly what you say in my FA83 it just won't go in all the way. I'm not gonna rework an FA83 for that one load or bullet. Are you sure you'd really want to for those bullets? Are you that wed to them?

[blklabs]

Actually I think I will just do what you recommended first and load to the top crimp groove.  That should fix my problem.  I am not sold on the bullet, I could just as easily go with the 300 LBT WFNGC and try that bullet out.  But, I have almost 500 of those laying around I want to use them, so I will use them up and then try and different bullet.  I am really curious to see what the 310 does to a hog though ........  Thanks for your help!

[blklabs]

Graybeard,
So I ran into this problem again except this time it is with my 41 mag.  I am using the MBW LBT 220 WFN-GC.  My brass is new and measures 1.280" however, when crimped in the one and only groove, the shell measures 1.638.  This does the same thing and makes the shell unable to be loaded.  Can I just seat the bullet to the appropriate position and crimp outside the groove on the bullet?  Will that affect accuracy?  Why would a crimp groove be there on the bullet to make it this long?  Please help me understand.  Thanks!

Jonathan

[Graybeard]

You are learning the single biggest disadvantage of the WFN type bullets. They really are to fat too far for some guns. The LFN fixes that. I'd not want to crimp other than in the crimp groove personally. Depending on how many you have to use up you might want to think about trimming the cases just enough to crimp in the proper place and still be able to chamber them. Do one at a time until you're sure you've got the right trim to length if you go this route don't do a bunch until you're sure the length is right.

Buying a whole bunch of any bullet before you've experiemented and verified you can and want to use it is fraught with such problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

Bill has given some excellent advice. The round flats and wfns can be cantancerous to load in some guns. Id never open the chamber up past 4305. Either seat them deap or move on to another bullet. Another option is to trim your brass a touch until they chamber but to me its not worth the bother as im not to impressed with round flats or wfns anyway and much prefer a good lfn or swc bullet design.

[myronman3]

have you measured your chamber throats?  my f.a. requires me to size bullets to 429 or they do the same thing.   sizing your bullet down will likely solve the problem.   lee makes very affordable dies that work well for this purpose.

[blklabs]

So what is the best way to measure the cylinder throats?  Would I need to use the lead slug or is there another method?  Also, if I bought the bullets from MBW and they are allready heat treated, can you still size them? I bought them sized to .411 since my bore measured .410.  Thanks.

[Graybeard]

You could do it like slugging a bore with a soft lead ball or slug but it's fairly easy and accurate to just use a caliper which every reloader SHOULD have on hand. The most accurate way is with a full set of precise measuring pins that you stick in and determine which exactly matches the throat but darn few of us who aren't machinists are gonna have such laying around.

[myronman3]

you could take it to a shop and have it measured.   slug it, or put known sized bullets in your cylinder to see what fits and what doesnt.   i have various size bullets, so that is what i do.

[Questor]

blklabs:

The SAAMI maximum cartridge length for 44 magnum is 1.610 inches. Some rifles and Contender loads are published for COLs of up to 1.750 inches. My suggestion is that you develop another load. I also suggest you quit using Lyman data because, although tested to be safe, does not represent real world performance in real guns. Try a Speer manual because it gives real world performance.

I assume that what you wrote about .1" brass sticking out of the cylinder, you meant .1" of bullet sticking out of the cylinder, not the actual cartridge brass.

In load development, look up data for 310 grain cast bullets and seat your bullet to that length. Take a look at the following article to get some further insight into the problem.
http://www.castbullet.com/reload/lee310.htm

[Graybeard]

No Rudy I think he meant it as he said it the rim end of case sticking out when the bullet made contact and stopped it from going in further. I've experience it with the FA83 myself. The rounds just will not fully seat in the chamber.

[Ken Rummer]

I had a similar problem.  Rounds would drop into my 629 but would stick out .130 in the RSB cylinder.  I was loading a Montana Bullet Works .432 WFNGC.  Montana bullets have a very long full diameter sticking out of the case and if this doesn't fit inside the throats, the round won't seat.  My RSB had throats .0005 smaller than the 629 and I think that was the point of contact.

I bought a Beartooth bullet 265 WFNGC .432 dia that has a reduced diameter (.431) sticking out of the brass and this chambers easily.  Haven't shot it yet but if it shoots ok it will be the bullet for both guns..