Confederate Mortar Base, PLEASE HELP WITH INFO

[Cat Whisperer]

There is a 12 PDR in a museum there in the Shenddoah VAlley--VMI?  There is some question as to whether is is real or reproduction.

I had pictures of it, but can't find them right now.   In fact If I think about it the pictures may be displayed here on the is board some where.  I tried several years ago to get the curator to send me measurements...he never did.  What I do have is a complete set of drawings of Confederate 12 PDR and 24  PDR by the West Bros.  These drawings are accepted as correct by the N-SSA.

If I remember, it's a repro - that's the museum at Haymarket, VA run by VMI.  VMI also has a VERY good museum on campus in Lexington, with a very different selection of pieces.  Like most museums they welcome researchers if given advanced notice.

The last time I was there I was enamored with their functional Williams gun.

[guardsgunner]

CW,
   Isnt the Williams gun and mortar at New Market Va?  The VMI cadets fought in battle there.

Bob

[Double D]

Tim,

Is Haymarket right along the freeway  on the way from your  house to where I use to live?

I think the consenus  was that the Haymarket Mortar is reproduction, but it is is not a conclusive.  There are those who say it is real. But the museum makes no claim either way. In any case it is old.

[lance]

PICKED UP AN INTERESTING BOOK TODAY.  the Battlefields of the Civil War, by William C. Davis.  nice big two page picture of the Gettysburg mortars. this book has picture credits and side info. the red based mortar is from THE WENDELL LANG COLLECTION, also states that the reb base is a reproduction..........so i still don't know why the red paint, or if that it was reproduced from what was left of an actual Tredegar base. i can't see someone just "making up" a base and saying it's Confederate. there must be some info somewhere that guided the builder to make a Confederate base. or maybe a real Veteran that saw the bases in action knew how to build it???................. The WILLIAMS GUN is at NEW MARKET, i don't remember the mortar, spent all my time with the Williams gun............... DOUBLE D, those drawing you have of NSSA accepted Confederate bases, do they look like the "red base"......... ARTILLERYMAN, i just found about a million great pictures NWT-NSSA, are you the NORM G. in the pics??? man i could spend hours looking through those pics,great stuff, also saw some bases kind of like the red Gettysburg base. not exact,but close enough...... TIM, ever get the story on that "satan" cannon?

[Cat Whisperer]

CW,
   Isnt the Williams gun and mortar at New Market Va?  The VMI cadets fought in battle there.

Bob

Bob -  YES - NEW MARKET is the town.

DD - It is in fact just off I-81 as you stated.  (Haymarket is off I-66 where a fellow lives that I've dealt with on MGB's).

[copdoc]

 Lance, I think have that book.   I'll try to find it.  I am not too surprised it is a reproduction as I have seen it in person although that has been some years ago.  The design does look easy to make and someone may have put a period one together, but I have seen a lot of old barrels are put on mounts made of whatever happened to be available just for display.  It would not surprise me at all if an original had red paint.  I wonder how long the "Gettysburg" sled would hold up with a 24 pounder shooting a fullpower loads.  That is a lot of trauma and even the solid wood bases apparently broke with some frequency.  I am still in search of a period description or photo.  With that in mind, were the light mortars that Col. Poague used just Tredgar 24 pounders, 24 pounders with this light base or is this where the 12 pounders were used.  We may never know.  I'll bet eventually a 12 pounder will surface as it is small enough to take home for a souvenir.  The sleds are much more prone to rot and ruin.  Does anyone know Wendell Lang?

[Double D]

Lance the NSSA approved drawings are as solid block.

Given that Gettysburg displayed that mortar, there must be a thread of originality.

[Artilleryman]

DD, I am unaware of any N-SSA approved drawings for mortar beds.  The rules as I know them say that the bed must be like the originals.  This of course would mean that solid block mounts constructed as per the originals are approved.  Is this what you mean?  I would add that quite a few N-SSA mortar crews are competing with open block mounts. 

[Double D]

Yes Norm, that's what i meant, I just said it differently.  The drawings are made from originals and thus approved.

[GGaskill]

So is what we are saying is that for a 24 pounder, the solid rectangular block is a known and acceptable mount but, although the 12 pounder's presence is documented, its mount is not?  Therefore it can be used on any mount?  A block mount?  The outlline mount previously discussed?

[Double D]

The 12 PDR is documented.  I also beleive there are pictures of it...feel free to correct me.  There is just a question of there being any survivors.  The New Market gun is considered by most to be a repro.  Some do say it is orginal and it has a block base. 

If you attend the Ft Shenadoah shoot you will find all manner and configuration of bases, including if I remember correctly Lance's frame base.   Is that correct Norm, the frame base like Lance is using is period correct?

I went through my pictures of Ft Shenandoah and couldn't find one like Lances. That simply mean I didn't take a picture of one.

[Artilleryman]

All I can say with any certainty is that the N-SSA thinks that frame mounts are period correct.  Unless there are period drawings, photos, or written descriptions there is a certain amount of uncertainty.   Since I have seen any of this documentation I would be hesitant to say that they are period correct. 

After you've heard two eyewitness accounts of the same automobile accident, you begin to worry about history.

Lance, I am the Norm G of the NWT.

[Double D]

Lance, there you have it!!!  Norm says....N-SSA thinks the frame is period correct...Who are we to question there combined wisdom of  N-SSA.

[lance]

 ARTILLERYMAN, thank you for all the info.... i thought that was you in the pictures. that site has link after link of what i think is the most and best group of pictures i've ever found..............DOUBLE D, now we have to figure out the right paint color, pick one for me. i did e-mail the 18th South Carolina Mortar Battery, that's the 3rd pic on page one- the GRAY painted bases. i asked them for any historical info they might have. they said their mortars were copies of the red based Gettysburg mortar they saw in the same books that i have. they painted theirs gray, to match other guns they have. they also asked me, that if i ever found any historical info, they sure would like to have it too

[copdoc]

DD I would love to see pics of an original 12 pounder if you can find them.

Lance Glad I contacted you.  I have wondered about the originality of the Gettysburg mortar since I saw it. Too bad it turned out to be a reproduction bed.

If anyone has pics, drawings, stories of any original Confederate Coehorns I would like to see them. I am particularly interested in period pictures.

Anyone have pics of the "New Market Gun"?

[lance]

DOC, here's some police work for you. no sled is guilty till proven so. the felon: RUSS A. PRITCHARD, noted CIVIL WAR EXPERT and FBI most wanted. the first book i posted was all PRITCHARD, he lists the mortar as CONFEDERATE, that book is 2003.........the second book i posted by WILLIAM C. DAVIS is second printing1999,but PRITCHARD was TECHNICAL ADVISOR, he is the expert in all things civil war. do a google on PRITCHARD,he has been nabbed countless times for cheating people. he tells them their CIVIL WAR items are fake, buys them cheap, resales them for a big fortune. the FBI see's him often, something to think about anyway............... i got a cool original story about CONFEDERATE MORTARS in use, i'll see about linking it to here, maybe i can find it and post it later. OH, one more thing, how about you and the guy's in the crime lab going over this picture. the pic is captured CONFEDERATE ARTILLERY, most folks look at the close up of the CANNON. but, in front of the barn door, i see what i think is TWO MORTARS with DIFFERENT BEDS. one BLOCK and one FRAME SLED, looks like the short frame bed like i posted. 4th pic page one,GREEN SLED. if so, that would be an original pic of the GETTYSBURG SLED..........

[copdoc]

Interesting Lance
That is what I was looking for. Period pics.  They do look like different beds.  The one on the left looks like it could be open or solid.  The height is about the same as the Ft Benning coehorn or even lower. It even looks like the trunnions may be more forward like Ft Benning.  That is interesting.   Are there rings on it?   I need to get a copy for the book and do laser photo enlargement.  Thanks again and let's hear the Confederate Coehorn story.

[lance]

DOC, both mortars by the barn door look strange to me. the one on the left has a very low bed, looks like a frame to me. the one on the right is leaning over a bit, maybe a broken frame causing it to lean?? i can't see any "rings", both mortars are period pieces though for sure. i can only enlarge the pic so much before it gets fuzzy. that will be a good job for you guys at CSI, tell me the truth, do the women cops look as great as the ones on t.v. .............if you want a neat Confederate mortar story,google this: RECOLLECTIONS OF A REBEL REEFER MORTAR PITS. it should jump to page 212, the story is on pages 212-213. i like that story,really like the part about BUTLERS men getting fed up with the CONFEDERATE MORTARS. and to think that they did it over and over and over.............. i'll have to dig out stories about the mortars at THE BATTLE OF THE CRATER. my favorite battle of the war.i always study it because my g-g-grandfather was a  CONFEDERATE 1st LT.  he was there when it blew,and got to see the fight too, and lived to tell about it.