SO! How much better is 25-06 in a 28" barrel vs 24"

[R.W.Dale]

Thinking about buying a 25-06 pro-hunter barrel for my encore and was wondering if there's any real advantage to that 28" barrel

[rbergum95]

i think it is just a matter of opinion. the .25-06 being the laser beam that it is performs well in any standard length barrel. i have shot a custom .25-06 with a 30 inch barrel and cant  say that performance was any better than my M77 with a 24 inch barrel. velocities were a bit better, not by enough to really matter, accuracy was decent. overall i cant say it impressed me enough to want a longer barrel.

[nomosendero]

Thinking about buying a 25-06 pro-hunter barrel for my encore and was wondering if there's any real advantage to that 28" barrel

This is one of those questions that always starts arguments, but fine. 

How much the 28 will do over the 26" I don't know, but I KNOW that a 26" is a worthwhile gain, having tested several 25-06's with 24" & 26" & with several loads in each gun. You can't just compare one long barrel with one short barrel & a load or two & have anything conclusive, because we sometimes get a slow or fast barrel or a match vs a sloppy factory chamber, etc., but if you compare several as we have, a trend will develop, been there, done that. Therefore the 28 has to be better, even if the gain over a 26" is small. Bottom line is the 30-06 case has a good bit of powder to burn down a 25 caliber hole & the slow powders with a long barrel really wake this round up. The old 25fps per inch loss the armchair boys spew just doesn't work with this round.

Besides, you are talking about an encore here with no real receiver length. A 28" Encore will be real close to the same length as a 24" bolt gun with a long action that you would need for a 25-06. Does anyone think a 24" tube bolt gun is too long except for someone vertically challenged?   And though some couch potatoes may argue the point, the Pro-hunter is really not heavy, so why not get the 28". Try RL22
for 100 gr bullets & under, or RL25 or Retumbo with 115 & up, work up slowly & let us know how she does.
BTW, I will not allow a 22" 25-06 into my house.
 
Krochus, maybe the temp. is finally going to drop down into the 90's in God's country so that we all can start shooting again. It was only in the upper 90's today, I am ready.

[Grumulkin]

Testing actually has been done on how much velocity is lost as a barrel is shortened.  The velocity loss should be in the range of 15 to 25 fps per inch with the shorter barrel.

[Mac11700]

Testing actually has been done on how much velocity is lost as a barrel is shortened.  The velocity loss should be in the range of 15 to 25 fps per inch with the shorter barrel.

What testing might that be...? Was it done with just 1 load...2 loads...factory or hand loads.. ?...Was it done with just 1 barrel and 1 caliber? How many different calibers was it done with..I've seen a few of the old articles from a 2001 Rifelshooter that made some comparisons with a couple different calibers and the author tried to make a claim that 20 fps per inch was a better assumption that the long standing 50 fps...I believe that the last article they ran was from 2003 where a person showed the difference with 2 different 7mm Mags and a 24" & 26"...he used hand loads and factory loads...with different bullets...his results varied as well...but was somewhere between 20 & 70 fps... Every barrel is different...some more dramatic than others in velocity gain & loss...and just as there are fast barrels...there are slow barrels as well...I have had 25-06 barrels that showed over 125fps difference with the same load shot from different barrels...as I am sure others have had as well...and this has been on just the 26" tubes...There are way too many variables to be 100% certain...and at best can only be classified as generalities.There are many things that will skew any type of this testing for this to happen...and most of all of it will boil down to pressure variances...Different bullet types have different bearing surface measurements..hence...pressure differences...Coated and un-coated bullets...net pressure differences...Different types of rifling being used...again...pressure differences...Different chamber/throat/leade dimensions......again cause pressure differences...as does the various burn rates of different powders...and also the different primers used...Each different type component has to be taken into account and logged for any type testing to be valid....Taking 1 barrel and cutting it back means nothing more except for....with that barrel...at that length using that load will it net those velocity differences 



Mac

[rickt300]

Way better at knoicking your mirror off the windshield, needing a hard to find gun case. I once had a 280 with a 27 inch barrel that was the most destructive device to vehicl insides and the slowest out of the vehicle rifle I ever owned. I traded it for a 22 inch barreled 270 and never looked back. The only gain was a slightly quieter rifle.

[R.W.Dale]

Way better at knoicking your mirror off the windshield, needing a hard to find gun case. I once had a 280 with a 27 inch barrel that was the most destructive device to vehicl insides and the slowest out of the vehicle rifle I ever owned. I traded it for a 22 inch barreled 270 and never looked back. The only gain was a slightly quieter rifle.

 I guess you'd be surprised to find out that a 28" barreled pro hunt Encore is the same length overall as a 22" barreled Remington 700 BDL

[dw06]

Way better at knoicking your mirror off the windshield, needing a hard to find gun case. I once had a 280 with a 27 inch barrel that was the most destructive device to vehicl insides and the slowest out of the vehicle rifle I ever owned. I traded it for a 22 inch barreled 270 and never looked back. The only gain was a slightly quieter rifle.

 I guess you'd be surprised to find out that a 28" barreled pro hunt Encore is the same length overall as a 22" barreled Remington 700 BDL

Thats what makes single shots so nice,you can have a long barrel but without an action still have a nice overall package.

[nomosendero]

Testing actually has been done on how much velocity is lost as a barrel is shortened.  The velocity loss should be in the range of 15 to 25 fps per inch with the shorter barrel.

Ah, just like some of the old writers said, regardless of caliber, case capacity, type of powder, primer, anything I guess. It is pretty close for a 308
or even a 30-06 with some loads, but for a 25-06 with good loads, pure bunk!!

I am not a gambler, but I don't have to be. Bring the cash, I have the guns & the loads available & this will help finance my Oct. trip to WY!! 

BTW, I never knocked off a mirror, glass or anything else with these barrels, but I can walk & chew gum at the same time though.

[Lone Star]

What testing might that be...?..I've seen a few of the old articles from a 2001 Rifelshooter that made some comparisons with a couple different calibers and the author tried to make a claim that 20 fps per inch was a better assumption that the long standing 50 fps...

I don't know where that "long standing 50 fps/inch" came from - Remington has listed between 15-25 fps/inch (depending on velocity) for over 30 years.  How about some real data?  I do not have .25-06 data but:

RifleShooter 9/03 - barrel cut off in 1" increments:
Cartridge.........load.......27"......26"......25"......24".....23".....22".....21"......average
.270 WCF..130/H4350..3115.....3093....3071...3054....3035...3027...3001...19 fps/inch
.300 Win...180/RL22....3055.....3031....3024...3003....2984...2960.............19 fps/inch

These are clearly maximum loads with appropriate powders for each cartridge.  The .25-06 isn't magic - has an expansion ratio between the .270 and the .300, so it should show similar differences per inch.  No real ballistic advantage for the 27" barrel over a 24", at least not in real-world terms.  No reason not to use that length though.

 I wish I had .25-06 data, but I do not.  However, I have extensive data for other cartridges from numerous published tests over the past 25 years, and around 20-30 fps/inch is the average for all cartridges tested, including overbores like the .264 Magnum and the .300 UltraMag.  The ONLY way to really test the velocity per inch lost by the .25-06 is to cut the SAME barrel off in increments and measure the difference.  Any other "test" with different barrels, etc. is a waste of everyone's time.  Do you still offer the bet? 


.

[rickt300]

Oops didn't connect "Pro Hunter" with Encore. Truth is my next toy just might be one. On the other hand just how handy would one of these short wonders be with a 22 inch barrel?

[R.W.Dale]

Oops didn't connect "Pro Hunter" with Encore. Truth is my next toy just might be one. On the other hand just how handy would one of these short wonders be with a 22 inch barrel?

 They're pretty darn handy with a 20" tube

 here's a pic of my encore wearing a 20" 460 Magnum barrel

[Mac11700]

What testing might that be...?..I've seen a few of the old articles from a 2001 Rifelshooter that made some comparisons with a couple different calibers and the author tried to make a claim that 20 fps per inch was a better assumption that the long standing 50 fps...

I don't know where that "long standing 50 fps/inch" came from - Remington has listed between 15-25 fps/inch (depending on velocity) for over 30 years.  How about some real data?  I do not have .25-06 data but:

RifleShooter 9/03 - barrel cut off in 1" increments:
Cartridge.........load.......27"......26"......25"......24".....23".....22".....21"......average
.270 WCF..130/H4350..3115.....3093....3071...3054....3035...3027...3001...19 fps/inch
.300 Win...180/RL22....3055.....3031....3024...3003....2984...2960.............19 fps/inch

These are clearly maximum loads with appropriate powders for each cartridge.  The .25-06 isn't magic - has an expansion ratio between the .270 and the .300, so it should show similar differences per inch.  No real ballistic advantage for the 27" barrel over a 24", at least not in real-world terms.  No reason not to use that length though.

 I wish I had .25-06 data, but I do not.  However, I have extensive data for other cartridges from numerous published tests over the past 25 years, and around 20-30 fps/inch is the average for all cartridges tested, including overbores like the .264 Magnum and the .300 UltraMag.  The ONLY way to really test the velocity per inch lost by the .25-06 is to cut the SAME barrel off in increments and measure the difference.  Any other "test" with different barrels, etc. is a waste of everyone's time.  Do you still offer the bet? 


.

The standing general assumption that has been printed about a bazzilion times over the last 50 years...is to what I am referring to...And like I just said...it is a general assumption by many...not always myself ...Don't take what I said out of context.Remington can post what ever velocities they want to...I have always gotten different velocities than what they have published...especially when they switched over to using data from a 24" test barrel from the 26" they were using...with my rifles...and I have seen faster velocities posted with others...and I still stand by this statement...

Taking 1 barrel and cutting it back means nothing more except for....with that barrel...at that length  using that load   will it net those velocity differences 

Expansion ratio's are nice...but they don't take in any account of the multitudes of variables a person can have between loads...and different barrels.

Mac

[nomosendero]

Do I still offer the bet? Yep!!!     I have seen this same crap 20 years ago. I have seen these articles & other articles that state just the opposite, just as I have seen "gun writers" state how all you need is a std. round instead of a mag with compelling evidence, comparing the loads that suit the purpose of that month & the next month tell you why you need a magnum by the same writer & state compelling evidence that shows a huge advantage with the loads that suit that purpose. I have actually used & cronied the 25-06 extensively & don't have to guess as some are admittedly doing.

About this wonderful research posted it was stated. "These are clearly maximum loads". No they are clearly not! It is no trick to get 3,100+ fps with a 180 gr. in a 300 WM with a 24" tube, Nosler shows 3,160, over 150+ more velocity & over 100+ with THAT powder.
The warmer the load, the more difference in vel. many times.

I had this discussion with a cousin a few years ago who was just starting to get interested shooting, same cartridge. I told him what I had experienced & being a beginner who already knew more than me (Yankee city boy), he called Rem & got the old 20fps per second
regardless of caliber advise. He felt compelled to call me & advise me that my crony & loads were all wet. I should have listened to Rem.
    Kinda makes you wander why Rem offers a 26" tube with the 300RUM, why not a 22" for all of it, o yea, muzzle blast!!!!

So now I guess the the 45-70 with a 16" tube & a 300RUM with a 16" tube would lose the same per inch if cut down from a 26" tube,
"20-30fps per inch is the average for all cartridges tested", WOW, allrighty then.  It would make tings less complicated, if 19FPS is what we are looking at across the board, then we could have just one barrel length & just pick your cartridge on case capacity. In 25 caliber, we could have a 20" tube for 257STW, 257WEA, 25-06, 257 Roberts, 250 Sav & 25-20 & be confident that we only need one barrel length because to cut off an inch would be 19fps for any of them . This is just to ridculous for words, SORRY!!!

I am done with this one. I said in the first post what would happen, very predictable & I have the same goofy articles.
"I wish I had 25-06 data", why, that does not stop anyone around here, who needs data I guess. And it appears that those with just opinions think
those "opinions" are more conclusive that fact.

This is too silly for any additional response or any additional viewing by me.  BYE, BYE!!

 

[Lone Star]

Enjoy your magic rifle that ignores the laws of physics.   We will all miss your rants about the magic of your mystical experiences....no data, just opinion  Have fun!   

.

[Mac11700]

Enjoy your magic rifle that ignores the laws of physics.

Which law of physics would this be?

I have data from 3 different 26" 270's...2 different 24" 270's...and 4 different 22" 270's...I also have data from many different 30-06's and 7mm mags as well...that totally contradicts your figures...so what ...It still doesn't mean squat...How in blue blazes can there be any rule or law when it comes to discussing as many variables as there are amongst the different rifles and load combinations...? The only thing one can say is a longer barrel should produce higher velocity than a shorter barrel...How much will depend on that particular rifle and load......Good Grief... The one thing that always amazes me is it is always guys who do like longer barrels trying to say that longer barrels aren't needed...and point to a few loads that don't show much spread out of their particular rifle..WOW...I'm duly un-impressed...Then they go on to make this grand assumption that this holds true for every rifle and every load all over the world...What a crock of crap...Any body who has been reloading for a long time knows damn well they can optimize most loads for velocity out of their particular barrel...that's not saying it's going to be accurate mind you...because every rifle will have it's own velocity node where accuracy will be at its best...and if they haven't found it...then either something is wrong with their techniques (loading & shooting)..the load itself...or their rifle...or...they aren't reloading and shooting  much...

Mac

[SuperstitionCoues]

I am not about to enter into the semantics of such a heated discussion.  I will say this, however.  As a scientist in my discipline (ecology and wildife nutrition/habitat), I know the principles of statistics better than the principles of physics.  So, here goes.

As much as I hate to agree with MAC, there are a whole lot of individual variables that have not been entered into yet to really derive a good mathematical model of how well a longer barrel does versus a shorter barrel in 25-06.  I won't get into all of them, but the one that I usually have to weigh very heavily here in the Southwest when I work up my loads for 25-06 are temperature and relative humidity - especially when I am going to use them somewhere where it is a whole lot colder and drier. 

Typically you do get better velocities and accuracy out of a longer barrel than a shorter one.  Is there a set rule of thumb of how much you gain or lose? No.  Refer to my first statement of too many variables.  The gun writers want us to believe there is, because it is easier for them to deal with in their writing and presentation of their questionable data.  Truth is, when repeating their experiments in my own lab/reloading room and range, I am hard pressed to do so because they haven't been specific enough in their methods or materials to really get a good grip on the procedure.  However, how much velocity change will be dependant on a number of factors, including caliber and barrel length.  If you really want to get intense, include the metullurgy of the barrel and production methods of the rifiling.  Don't forget weather, either.   A principle from economics applies also, the Law of Dimishing Returns.

There will be a point, no matter how long you make that barrel or heavy you make that charge, where your data curve is going to flatten because you are not seeing the amount of "improvement" in your results for the efforts spent.  THAT is where your load should rest, weather your deciding factor is accuracy, velocity (often the two are mutually exclusive), or terminal ballistic effect (a correlation with one or both of the two).  For me, in this discussion, the limiting factor would be wanting to haul a 28" barrel anywhere out in the field.  I think you are crazy for wanting to; my muzzleloaders are 32" barrels, and they are bad enough!!!

So, the two things that I really wanted to say in this are:   1)  The point of this discussion is kind of silly, considering the physics of a 28" barrel and the physiology of carrying it around for any length of time in the field or in a case.  2)  Nomo Sendero is dead on in his recommendation of Rl-22 as a powder of choice for 25-06 loads.  I would also like to recommend H-4831SC.  I have had really great results using that, WLR primers w/ Sierra Gamekings (117). 

Now, everyone play nice in the sandbox, would ya?  You are disturbing my nap...   


..........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...............................

[Mac11700]

As much as I hate to agree with MAC, there are a whole lot of individual variables that have not been entered into yet to really derive a good mathematical model of how well a longer barrel does versus a shorter barrel in 25-06.

Man...I bet that hurt...

Your right in what you say...and I will go 1 step further if I may...The rifle companies would love for you to believe that every rifle barrel they produce has exact dimensions ...and as the vast majority of us already know...they don't.There is no way they physically can do this on a mass produced rifle where cost is a factor...With out having a constant for any testing...such as for the chamber/bore/leade...any testing would be for that particular rifle and that rifle only...The same is true for any canister powder/bullet/case/primer...all will have lot to lot variations and as you say the environmental factors...which is something that I had forgotten about...all will have a direct impact on any valid testing...

The main thing to all of this is simply.....each rifle is different...and should be treated as such...after all...why in one way or another is this cautionary statement printed in every reloading manual if it didn't merit being printed...?

Mac

[41 mag]

Once upon a time the longer barrels were thought to be more accurate than the shorter ones. Of course this was back in the Kentucky Long Tom guns.

I would give it a swing if I had an Encore. Since I don't I am building a 25-06 AI based on a accurized Rem action and adding a 28" Broughton 5C barrel.

From the 15 or so years I used the standard 25 in a Remington BDL, I am hoping for a tad bit more velocity, and plan on using a few of the heavier Wildcat bullets to reach out a touch a few yotes and feral hogs. Might even add a whitetail to the mix under the right situation.

I have been looking hard at the Encores but based upon the barrels available, I also have to think of the divorce attorney's fee as well.  My sweetie has put up with a lot but I am not sure she is going to handle much more in the way of filling the safe over filling the freezer. 

As for the velocity issues with different loads and barrels and lengths and variables, I believe this has been covered already.

[Dee]

I have been reloading and shooting the 2506 since 1970. I have owned 8 in two different brands, and 3 different configurations on barrel weight and five length variations. The one thing I found in all 8 rifles (all bolts) was that with good loads, and some fine tuning on the rifle itself, they were all tack drivers. I have loaded everything from the 87 grain to the 120 grain, and I suppose everything in between. I have killed racoons to deer with them, and lots and lots of coyotes, and a few bobcats also. The other thing I notice about the 2506, is everytime I got away from it, I always went back to it.
I don't know about all these barrel lengths and it certainly doesn't seem like something to argue about. But I do KNOW one thing. The 2506 has served me well for almost 40 years now, and it never occured to me to consider the barrel length. Everything I shot with it just didn't seem to care.

[PartsMan]

All I know is that my 26" 25-06 would shoot a flame 12" out the barrel.
That was factory ammo.

I am certain that a longer barrel would give more velocity and less muzzle blast.
Just Don't know how much.

[Don Fischer]

Boy am I glad I'm not paying for this information, I haven't learned a damn thing. But I have discovered a fact. Yep this must be fact. In order to fine tune your rifle to 3000fps, just fire a shot over a chronograph and either file off barrel as needed or lengthen it with JB Weld! You could make your pet sloth slayer shoot exactly the speed you want

I'll go to my room now before someone yells at me

[Mac11700]

Boy am I glad I'm not paying for this information, I haven't learned a damn thing. But I have discovered a fact. Yep this must be fact. In order to fine tune your rifle to 3000fps, just fire a shot over a chronograph and either file off barrel as needed or lengthen it with JB Weld! You could make your pet sloth slayer shoot exactly the speed you want

I'll go to my room now before someone yells at me

? and this means...what  ? Are you hoping for some concrete mathematical formula to figure velocity loss for all barrel lengths...? If so...don't hold you breath... So... you can come back out now...

Mac

[Dee]

Yea, this is one of those debates, where you MUST IGNORE, powder brand and burn rate, primer (hot or normal), case brand, (thickness and capacity), and jacket on bullet (hardness). Only the barrel length can give you EXACT FIGURES on loss or gain in velocity.

[cankiller]

I would go with the longer barrel because faster  is faster no matter how little the difference. I dont think it would be any harder to handle just my opinion

[IOWA DON]

I don't remember where I got the chart, but it was a reprint from the American Rifleman and it has data for so many calibers that I think it was generated from a computer or some internal balistics computations. That may be better than by actual testing as sometimes guns do funny things. That is, the first inch cut from a barrel may show a large velocity loss and the next inch almost nothing. Anyway, the chart shows a .25-06 at 2,950 fps with a 24-inch barrel with a 120-grain bullet. Going from 24 to 26 inches adds 49 fps and going from 26 to 28 inches adds an additional 44 fps. Since adding inches to the barrel adds pressure over distance, it would be better to look at extra barrel length as adding energy. That is, there would be a greater velocity gain with lighter bullets. Since energy is proportional to bullet weight times velocity squared, the velocity gain with an 75-grain bullet would be 1.26 times as much. With 75-grain bullets a 28-inch barrel would gain 117 fps over a 24-inch barrel. I burned out a barrel on a 7mm Weatherby and was about to have it rebarreled and decided I may as well get some use out of the old barrel so decided to do some testing with it. The load I used gave 160-grain bullets a velocity of 3,100 fps in the barrels original 26 inch length. Sawing 2 inches off its length reduced the velocity by about 80 fps and sawing off another 2 inches reduced the velocity by about another 80 fps. I had a 6mm-06 barrel made for my Thompson-Center TCR and it is 29 inches. Being a single shot it is about the same overall length as a bolt action with a 25-inch barrel, but I figure I gained about 150 fps with 70-grain bullets. It shoots those out at 3,900 fps +. I also like the foreward balance of a longer barrel.

[Dino]

What makes the 25-06 bring out so much anger in people.
Every post I read with 25-06 seems to end in a battle of the I'm right people, well make that most posts.
I was selling a barrel and was told;"I don't know you, you never post" Well I did, in regards to factory or custom barrel for an encore 25-06 and my post ended up a battle? I'll go back to just reading and by pass the I'm right people and get the good info.
Thanks to all of you that can add to a post with out making it a pissing match.
I'm just a simple person who loves guns but I have to deal with processed grass all day at work and I sure don't need it here on my own time.
With that said I'll give my input:
Krochus;
If you'd like to try the 28" barrel go for it, if it doesn't work, Encore barrels hold there value fairly well and the pro-hunters should be in high demand. Life is short, have fun and a 28" 25-06 sure sounds fun.