Author Topic: first shot with a clean barrel  (Read 880 times)

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Offline MOGLEY

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first shot with a clean barrel
« on: September 30, 2007, 03:25:53 PM »
I have been working up loads for my newly acquired 223 handi. Groups are promising but I have noticed one constant. The first shot out after cleaning the barrel is WAY high. I make my targets on 8 1/2 x 11 paper with 5 bulls. Center one gets the first 5 shots. The very first shot tonite was 4 inches high! almost missed the target. Second shot was 2" left of dead center and the next 2 were 3 inches low. After that, the next 6 were in a 1 1/2" group vertical but still a group. I know some shoot a fouling shot but is this too much variance in poi? I was shooting off a rest and all shots were steady when fired. I was shooting at 100 yards.
 I have shot as many as 20 rounds without cleaning and have wondered if a dirty barrel is to blame when they are not quite on. Now I am more concerned about a clean barrel!! This barrel is brand new and now has about 50 rounds thru it. Since I am working with different rounds I do not expect to hit the bull but am concern myself only with the groups. When I find the right load I will zero then.  Any experiences with this much variance? is it because the barrel is so new?
 I reload and have got very precise with the loads ie case length, individual weighed loads of powder and oal lengths are uniform.. Not sure what else for info to give. Any thoughts...?
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2007, 03:44:34 PM »
There are a few things that may be wrong. First off most Handie's like a dirty barrel and will not group well for at least 5 or 6 shots after cleaning. Second when you are shooting are you rest it under the hinge? Third if it is a new barrel it could take a couple hundred rounds through it for it to tighten up the groups. Hope this helps Dale
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Offline Strick28

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2007, 04:28:05 PM »
My 7-08 does the exact same thing.  After asking here it seems that Handis don't like clean barrels.  I load for mine also and was wondering what was going on because I never had first round fliers like that.  After my last trip to the range I wiped her down and put her up.  Next trip out first three rounds were what i was looking for.  I suppose after you clean it's better to put some foulers through before expecting any consistency.  It was also mentioned if your using it for hunting document your cold shot poi for future reference when out hunting...

Offline trotterlg

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2007, 05:15:39 PM »
I think you probably have some other problem than a clean barrel.  It is more likely to be the lockup getting settled in.  Could be the latch getting settled after cleaning or the forearm moving some after being replaced.  Oil or grease being squeezed out from the hinge pin, lots of things can do it besides a clean barrel.  Try doing everything you do to the rifle when you clean it except clean the bore, take it apart and lube what you lube, just don't clean the bore.  You may find you are getting some cleaning solvent on the breach end of the barrel or latch shelf or latch.  It doesn't take much.  I've posted this before, but is shows that the first bullet out of a clean bore does not have to be a flyer, this is 1 through 10 out of a clean bore of a 17 Remington bolt gun.  Larry

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Offline Mac11700

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 06:19:25 PM »


Larry is quite right...not all Handi's shoot best from a fouled bore...There is information in the FAQ's about cleaning and lapping the barrel to help with the break-in period...and I would like to add...whenever I go to the range with my Handi's...I take along a small bottle of alcohol and a package of q-tips to swab out the chamber and clean the latch with...It has helped quite a bit..Also...make sure you are pulling all the way thru with the trigger from your first shot to your last shot...otherwise you will get some erratic groups as well...Here's my first 10 shots with a 280 with a clean bore...and factory ammo...



Mac
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Offline hannah

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2007, 03:30:43 AM »
well to confirm it's the rifle and not you... shoot some groups at 50 yards... if rifle is spot on then it's you.... if rifles groups are the same only half size then it's the rifle... but i always shoot my first groups at 50 to make sure rifle is up to par...once stablished i move em out to 100...200...300,,,400... ans lastly 500.... but all those ranges are totally irrelevant until i confirm the rifle at 50 yrds........also seems most barrels require about 80 rounds to break in... so your kind of wasting your reload data if trying them on a new bore..... shoot some plinking ammo til broke in... also about the clean barrel ... i see most topics these guns shoot better with a dirty barrel...lol... ... anyway any new barrels needs to break in....

Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2007, 06:19:56 AM »
The dirty bbl theory is mostly for the rimfires follow the FAQ's with the bore polish and cleaning. I do know my 204 and 223 stayed POINT of Prairie Dog for hundred's of rounds before cleaning bbl. Kurt
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2007, 08:05:05 AM »


Just got back from the range with my Limited 30-06 Ultra Comp...and had flitzed the barrel & chamber good before I went...I pulled my Leupold VX-1 off my Weatherby Sub-MOA...and rough bore sighted in my back yard before heading out...

!st 2 groups was with 150 grain Federal Power Shoks...after 1 sighter...top group is the second group it went 1.050"...the first group is .950"



I cleaned it completely at the range...and shot some 165 gr Remington Core Loks...3 in 1 hole...



I went for a 5 shot group next but  found my rear scope mount was loose.. :-[...I was in a hurry to go shoot....it still put 2 in the same hole 2 times and one in between...



So...you see...it will just depend on your barrel and what your shooting...

Mac

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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2007, 10:33:06 AM »
I think that rough barrels have a tendency to throw the first few shots after a through cleaning. Smoother bores do not. I am speaking generally.  There are always exceptions to the rule. You may find that your gun will not throw the first few after a few hundred rounds are shot through it. If you polish it real good, it may cure it too. Lots of folks find that the first few shots walk on the target, so they do not clean any more. One should check every so often to see if it changes. Here is an exception...I had a Remington 700 that did not like a clean bore no matter what I did, and I shot it a lot and polished a lot, it made no difference. ::)
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Offline Jimbo47

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 02:28:46 AM »
It would only make sense that a first shot is going to shoot different than the others will that have to travel through a fouled barrel.

I don't see that it would be that great a change, but if it's a hunting rifle and you want every "first" shot to hit exactly where you expect then you will need to clean the barrel after every shot to make sure, or shoot the gun and find out where the other fouled shots are hitting different from the clean bore shot!

I can see where a bench shooter would be less concerned with the first shot and concentrate more on the fouled shots for a group.

The hunter wants that first shot to count, and wants to know where it is going to strike the target.

Myself, I normally clean my barrel, and shoot once or twice just before I go hunting to make sure everything is still where it should be, and then won't clean my rifle until I've taken my game.
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline MOGLEY

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2007, 04:46:48 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.I am going to stick with the best load I have done so far and shoot the gun abunch more  until I think it has settled in. Once the barrel is fouled it shoots rather well. Tonite I even did a trigger job on it by using the instructions in the faq's section. Made a big difference.
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Offline just bill

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Re: first shot with a clean barrel
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2007, 03:02:16 AM »
Many variables there.

1) "first 50 rounds" - 50-75 is when mine starting coming in with no prior lapping.
2) "working up loads" - You already noted this but, if you think there is an issue stick with your best load to date for now until the issue is resolved.
3) Stick with the 50 yard range for now.  We all want to shoot at 100 with the new toy.  If your like the rest of us meaning a) not locking a gun in a vice b) don't have the best quality front rest,target scope,etc. c) shooting from wood benchs or "working up loads".  Stay at 50 yards to start and take out some variables.  I shoot from Caldwell bags front and rear.  With out question I have a human factor of play espiecially the way a handi rides bags.  You have even more as your just devolping a feel for the rifle, what grip it likes, the trigger, etc.  For what your doing now, 50 yard shooting and development takes some of the variables out.
4) Did you get copper fouling?  Cleaned for copper?

Here's what mine likes.  Your millage may vary.

a)  I get zero copper fouling in my Hornet.  It prefers a fouled barrel.  I simply pull a dry boresnake through every 20-25 rounds and deep clean with chemicals/rod/patches when it will sit for extended times or as needed.  After and during cleaning I have to keep the solvents off the latch and below as best I can and make sure the chamber is completely dry.
b) Mine prefers a tight grip.
c) To achieve acceptable consistent first shot placement and non wondering groups with good loads I tried several things from upward pressure points to floating the end of the forearm. My first factory stock had good lock up fit.  I replaced it with a factory laminate and my problems started.   This is where I learned about lock up  Fortunately I have a home 50 yard range for testing as I needed it for the lock up issues with the new stock.  The replacement forearm was slightly longer which made the lock up tighter, effected accuracy in a negative way.  If held horizontal and the action broke the barrel would not even drop to the ejector engagement point.  I carefully cut down the forearm but took slightly to much off it.  Now from the same position it would just flop open past the ejector engagement point with no restriction.  Accuracy was negative.  From there several times I would put the original forearm back on and test.  Accuracy was improved.  I then had to shim behind the plastic shoe on the new laminant forearm with alum. foil.  When correct I expoxy bedded the shoe,shims to the forearm, allowed it to seep out the sides and wiped flush before dry.  This also squared, filled gaps between the show and the forearm base and made a relatively perminate fix.  The accuracy was back to original.  The lock up was back to original and I learned something about break actions.  Nothing I had done had effected accuracy more.  Some here know the measurements of proper lock up etc.  I did it by trial, error and comparison feel while continuesly fireing many groups on my home 50 yard range for testing (the hard way really, but I had no choice).  Here is what I learned by feel.  Originally my action from the horizontal position if eased on the barrel would slowly drop to the point the ejector wanted to engage and stop.  That was the point of best accuracy and wear it is now.  It shot much worst when it was overly tight and somewhat worst when it was overly loose.  I notice from handleing Handis in gun shops the actions/lock up on some are what I now beleive is right.  Others are IMO overly loose and just flop open.  I don't feel many that are overly tight.

Last from there as noted having tried various pressure points,rings,etc. with the original stock still on.  I opted to dowel sand the forearm to the lug and add the "O" ring.  In field I shoot off sticks hunting varmints and couldn't be happier.  My P.O.I. are consistent and predictable. Prior, I had added O rings with out doweling and tried several upward pressure points on the forearms last inch.  Some of my best groups were with the upward pressure but, in my humid summer environment, when I hunt Woodchucks the most, and from shooting sticks placed at the end of the forearm, my P.O.I. was moving. Again, it sure helps to have a home range to keep on top of things.  If I were a bench shooter and not a hunter and could have afforded a few sight in shots I may well have left the upward pressure point.  Maybe the same if I was in a dry climent?  But for me the dowel,float & O ring is the best and I have no regrets.  I would set up another exactly the same.  The time sounds like allot but was really minimal as it was a learning process for me.  The doweling,floating and bedding of the lock up time in reality was less than a couple hours and less than 10 bucks.  Again my original forearm was correct so one could eliminate that time and learning also.

Just some things to watch for on your Handi rifle adventure.  Now that I better understand them and have a feel for them I would get another with out second thought as they are easy and good value.

Bill