777 & 209 Ignition Issues?

[Flatshooter]

About this time last year I was having mis-fire issues with the Vari-Flame primers and 777 pellets. A few guys convinced me that I was not getting enough flame to ignite the 777 pellets which I was also informed needed a good shot of flame to ignite them. I switched back to the standard 209 primers and problem solved! Of course when I went back to the standard 209s I started to get the gunk again. No big deal as long as the pellets were firing as they should.

This week I'm going back to the bench to try loose 777 and would love to re-use the Vari-Flame primer system, but was wondering if I may have the same issues with the loose powder? Two years ago when I first tried the Vari-Flame primers with another brands pellets I liked how much cleaner the breech area was. I also liked the theory behind the Vari-Flames as posted on Precision Bullets website. 

I have not really found anything pertaining to this issue that I experienced, anyone else have any thoughts or input?
Thanks!

[Semisane]

First off, let me say that I had total failure with Vari-Flames in my Lyman Mustang, as did my brother-in-law with his Knight Disc.  It wasn't that the primer wouldn't ignite the charge.  The problem was neither rifle would ignite the primer in the Vari-Flame.  I don't know if the problem is related to firing pin shape, or something else.  We tried CCI small rifle primers and Winchester small pistol primers.  Never got a pop with either.

That said, if your rifle is popping the primers and they are not igniting the pellets, you might try a different brand of primer or magnum primers.  I find CCI small pistol magnum primers (CCI 550's) to be pretty hot.

[crb4809]

I have had good success with the Vari-flame system in my TC Omega. I have not had a misfire........yet. I am using Pyrodex RS loose powder.
I have read several posts where people had a problem getting the primer to ignite, if my memory is correct Lyman and Knight rifles seem to have the most trouble with Vari-flames. I do not remember reading about anyone with a Thompson Center having problems with ignition.
If you get so disgusted with them that you are ready to chunk them in the trash, I will be glad to take them off your hands.    If you are able to get the primer to ignite it should set off the powder. If the primer is not popping then I would check the firing pin mark to see if it is getting a good solid hit on the primer.  Another thing I believe I remember is to make sure the primer is fully seated in the pocket. Hope some of this helps.

[Redhawk1]

I don't use the Vari-Flame, I use the 25ACP case in my Encore. I have never had a fail to fire in my muzzleloader. I use the CCI small rifle primers and loose triple7. I have also had great success when I was using the triple7 pellets. I have shot from 90 degrees to 15 degrees with each shot going off.

So I don't think it is the primes as much as I think it may have to do with the Vari-Flame itself. The small rifle primer is in deed hot enough to set off any triple7 either powder or pellets. I used triple7 with number 11 caps and had great ignition, and the small rifle primers are hotter than the number 11 caps.

[sidekick]

I use the vari-flame system loaded with CCI small rifle primers and loose 777 powder in a TC Encore. Never had a FTF in over 50 shots so far. No more crude ring as with 209's. They are a little time consuming to prime and de-prime, and I usually try to clean the primer-holder-thingies between loadings, may not be necessary but just my anal nature. If I ever start to have trouble I'll probably switch to the .25 ACP plug or perhaps try the 777 primers first. I despise the crud ring thing. From what I've read on this forum the vari-flame system seems to be 'brand of rifle sensitive'.

[Oldsnow]

Here is something on primer burn rate. If I were shooting 777 I would stay with the low burn rate.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

[Semisane]

That's an interesting article Oldsnow.  I wish he had included CCI 209's in the test.  They work best in my gun (better groups and less crud).

[Oldsnow]

I wish he would have included CCI's also, I use CCI magnum primers in my smokeless ML

[Flatshooter]

All great input, thanks!

Yes I was able to get the primer to "pop", and this was never an issue or problem. I was at the time using the CCI small rifle primers. Like I was saying, the other brands pellets (cannot recall the manufacturer) fired flawlesly.

I have since replaced the breech plug and am very anal about keeping the nipple hole open while on the bench and during cleaning.

I will report back once this dreaded NE winds stop blowing here in Southern Delaware.
Thanks again

[crb4809]

If the primer is igniting but the powder is not burning and the pellet will light off with 209 primers, I would try the small pistol magnum primers as Semisane suggested. For some reason it would seem that the spark from the primer is not reaching the pellet. I have not used pellets nor am I familiar with your rifles breech plug design.
My standard troubleshooting thought process would lead me to run a clean patch down the barrel and fire off a primer to see how much flame you are getting. Just a stupid question but can you load a pellet backwards? After loading the rifle try running a nipple pick through to see if there is a big gap between the primer and pellet. Is there a possibility that the pellets that did not fire had absorbed some moisture? That's about all the ideas I can come up with for right now.
Let us know what you figure out.

[Flatshooter]

Just a quick update:
Sunday I finally got back on the range and good news- Loose Triple 7 and the Vari-Flames with small rifle primers worked just fine. No delayed firings and group was a bit tighter than last time out.
Thanks for all of your input and replies.