Author Topic: Encore - Omega - Triumph ?? (Read 2505 times)

Semisane · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:48:50 AM »

I conducted an experiment of shooting the same bullet & sabot combination over a chronograph, starting at 65 grains weight of T-7 FFFG and working my way up in five grain increments.

I shot seven sets of weighed charges at 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90 and 95 grain weight.

All charges were loaded under 300 grain Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points and Harvester Crush Rib sabots and set off with CCI small rifle primers in a 25 ACP breech plug and shot out of my Lyman Mustang.

Here are the average velocities for each load.

Grains Of Powder Average FPS
Weight = Volume Five-Shot Groups Group Size

65 74.7 1635 3 1/8"
70 80.5 1624 (-11 fps) 4 3/8"
75 86.2 1660 (+36 fps) 2 7/8"
80 92.0 1698 (+38 fps) 3 1/4"
85 97.8 1775 (+77 fps) 4 1/2"
90 103.5 1822 (+47 fps) 3"
95 109.3 1829 (+7 fps) 3 3/4"

I really can't explain why 65 grains had a higher velocity than 70 grains.

30-06man · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2007, 10:28:59 AM »

they are not totally different. are both measured in grains and both use sulfur. and by the way you can compare apples in oranges. example they are both fruits, and both can be ate. i was speaking of the pelltized triple seven. and yes its stupid for the 150 grains because i has no effect because it comes out the the barrel and not fully burnt. 120 grains isn't a magnum charge i am not speaking of 100 or 120 grains but of 150. 150 is way more than 120. 120 may finish burning but 150 will not without a better ignition. with the #11 primer its even worse. 150 for sure won't

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2007, 02:01:06 PM »

Quote from: 30.06man on October 10, 2007, 10:28:59 AM

they are not totally different. are both measured in grains and both use sulfur. and by the way you can compare apples in oranges. example they are both fruits, and both can be ate. i was speaking of the pelltized triple seven. and yes its stupid for the 150 grains because i has no effect because it comes out the the barrel and not fully burnt. 120 grains isn't a magnum charge i am not speaking of 100 or 120 grains but of 150. 150 is way more than 120. 120 may finish burning but 150 will not without a better ignition. with the #11 primer its even worse. 150 for sure won't

Can you provide use with some data to back your claims? Also check a bottle of triple 7 or triple 7 pellets, they are sulfur free. Also the measurements are by volume.

Now to get technical with you. 120 gr. of loose triple 7 is the magnum charge, it is equivalent to three 50 gr. triple 7 pellets. I think you may want to do a little more research before you keep posting thing that you have no idea about.

You say 150 gr. has no effect, then tell me why my velocity goes up compared to 100 gr. There is a big difference.

30-06man · « **Reply #33 on:** October 10, 2007, 02:42:48 PM »

pyrodex isn't and along with other companies. i have no clue who told you the bs about 120 grains is 150 but its not true. all the years i have used triple seven my powder bottle and hodgen and no body has said that. it doesn't you may get a little boost off of some but it would be so little that you couldn't detect it. all i can say is all of your data is incorrect. i once again looked and found no data that is like yours. here is something that supports the magum Myth.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/magnum_muzzleloading.htm
according to him no muzzle loader can burn more that 130 grains fully.. nope not magnum charge even in triple seven. your data is incorrect and you have no supporting evidence that a magum muzzle loader is better or more accurate. it may be less accurate. 120grains of triple 7 is not a magnum load. its a large but not magum load. a magum load it specified at 150grains or equilevent and 120 grains of triple seven is less than 150 grains! all this supports my data and it is no better and is a waste of money! 150 grains is a marketing advertisement magnum myth is gone. thats all i have to say

Semisane · « **Reply #34 on:** October 10, 2007, 03:42:47 PM »

Say 30.06man, you might want to either do a little more research or stick with that 30-06. You're a little misinformed about black powder subs.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #35 on:** October 10, 2007, 03:43:39 PM »

Loose powder, lets say like triple 7. Triple 7 is 15% more powerful than blackpowder/pyrodex. So a 120 grain load of loose powder T7 is close to being equal to 150 grains of lets say, pyrodex.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 10, 2007, 03:55:50 PM »

30.06man, it is obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about, I am not trying to be rude, but you are so off base it is not even funny anymore.
OK you don't think that 3 triple 7 powder does any better then 2 pellets, then why is the recoil more with 3 pellets? Let me give you a clue, because it burns more powder. If the only thing you change in your muzzleloader is the number of pellets, but use the same bullet you will feel the difference.

Yes the term magnum is over rated in a muzzleloader, but the term come from showing the gun is rated for 150 gr. instead of 100 gr.

Go to the Hodgdon web site and you will see this.

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/using.php

Do you understand that statement? In essence it is telling you if your gun manufacture lists your gun as capable of 150 gr. of black powder you need to reduce the triple 7 down 15%. That is where the 120 gr. by volume I am referring to comes from. Nobody had to tell me about 120 gr. of loose triple is equivalent to 3 triple 7 pellets. I did it on my own. Here is a way to do it, take 3 triple 7 pellets that they call 50 gr. Now put them on a scale and weigh them. Now measure 120 for loose triple 7 by volume. They are very very close. The 50 gr. pellets of triple 7 are equivalent to 50 gr. of black powder, do you know what that means??

I don't need to have Chuck Hawk tell me what I have learned from my own experience at the range.
I have put many many hours in at the range making comparison of loose triple 7 to pellets of triple 7. Point of impact does not lie.

No where did I say a magnum muzzleloader was more accurate or better. But I can tell you this, my Encore with 120 gr. of loose triple 7 will print 1 inch groups at 100 yards all day. Another fact is, my velocity is a lot more with a 120 gr. charge over a 90 gr. charge, which by the way is a duplicate of 2 triple 7 pellets.
Accuracy comes from the right powder charge and bullet combination, your gun will tell you what is likes to shoot and there for you will get accuracy.

I could go on and on about this, but until you quit reading what others write about and go to the range and see for yourself, you will not know.
I cannot add any more to this, it is up to you to put some time in at the range as I do.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #37 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:00:16 PM »

You forgot to mention that some company's such as cva, limit a loose powder load of 100 grains and the 150 grain mag load is only allowed when using PELLETS!

God its scary when others dont take others info into record and read up on it. Really scary when they dont read their rifle manuals.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:00:42 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on October 10, 2007, 03:43:39 PM

Loose powder, lets say like triple 7. Triple 7 is 15% more powerful than blackpowder/pyrodex. So a 120 grain load of loose powder T7 is close to being equal to 150 grains of lets say, pyrodex.

bigblock455, you are 100% correct.

Even though they do not recommend weighing black powder subs, it can be done. I have weighed my triple 7 to get consistency and I know others have done the same. But the thing to remember is, not to ever exceed the maximum load by volume.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #39 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:07:13 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on October 10, 2007, 04:00:42 PM

Quote from: bigblock455 on October 10, 2007, 03:43:39 PM
Loose powder, lets say like triple 7. Triple 7 is 15% more powerful than blackpowder/pyrodex. So a 120 grain load of loose powder T7 is close to being equal to 150 grains of lets say, pyrodex.

bigblock455, you are 100% correct.

Even though they do not recommend weighing black powder subs, it can be done. I have weighed my triple 7 to get consistency and I know others have done the same. But the thing to remember is, not to ever exceed the maximum load by volume.

I'd like to start weighing my powder charges but am unsure how to do so. Any info on this topic? What scales are good to use?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:09:13 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on October 10, 2007, 04:00:16 PM

You forgot to mention that some company's such as cva, limit a loose powder load of 100 grains and the 150 grain mag load is only allowed when using PELLETS!

God its scary when others dont take others info into record and read up on it. Really scary when they dont read their rifle manuals.

bigblock455, I have been playing with muzzleloaders for more years to care to mention, But I am a stickler to making sure I follow the gun manufactures load data. And to never exceed it.
That is why you will always see me mention to stick with the manufactures recommended load in some of my posts.
I have found, nothing replaces actual hand on experience. I read alot, but I also go out and see for myself. I have found where some of the things I have read were not true.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #41 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:18:53 PM »

bigblock455, this is what I have done.

I got my volume measure. I took what ever charge I am going to use, lets use 120 gr. of loose triple 7. I measure 120 gr. by volume, I do that 10 times. Now I take the 10 charges I have and weighed them all on my electronic scale. I take each number and recorded the actual weight down. I then add all the weights together and divide it by 10 and come up with the actual average weight. That is the weight I use. I no longer have to use the volume measure, because I now have a actual weight. I do the same thing in my Shiloh Sharps with the 45-70 black powder loads I use. I get better consistency in my groups. I just carried it over to my muzzleloading. Consistency is the key to good accuracy along with the right combination of bullet and load.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #42 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:23:13 PM »

I like that. I'll give it a try one of these days.

30-06man · « **Reply #43 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:26:12 PM »

the only way i could see it as being more powerful is that the pelltized is more compressed and the loose isn't but it is still not 150 grains exactly. i have never heard that the loose powder is more powerful. loose could burn better because it is less compressed but in the 50 grain pellets it is not efficiant to shoot 150grains. say semisane since i have only used triple seven for a little over 1 1/2 years and bought a thing of loose powder and then didn't use it and traded it to my brother for a pack of pelltized and thats what i am still using i really don't know much about the loose form. this would be the first time i heard this. i do know with pyrodex and triple seven pellets it is a waste to shoot 150 grains it leaves the barrel intact and still burning. i have researched that and tested it. just a little side note my orginal post didn't refer to loose powder because i only had one bottle of it and didn't use any of it. i was refering to the pellets. now if you still don't belive me go shoot your muzzle loader with 3 pellets out of a dark room from a window to the range. you will see the last pellet come out intact still burning. that my friends has no effect on that sabot since that sabot and bullet has left the barrel. The only loose powder i have used regulary was the pyrodex and its basically the same as fll blackpowder. i still cannot find anything about 120grains of t7 being equal to 150 of ffl black powder. you do know if it leaves with a muzzle vlocitey of lets say 1500 with 100grains in pellets and then you go to a "magaum charge with 3 pellets and it only increases by 100 fps now its 1600 well those first 2 burnt at 750 fps and got to 1500 as it left the barrel. the last one only burnt and made it have a extra 100 fps so its comming out of the barrel still burning or it would have been 2250 fps but since it left the barrel just starting to burn its not efficant to shoot it like that. its not worth it. if you have a longer barrel it would have maybe increased to 750fps so you will still need a longer barrel. the powder may burn faster but not fast ENOUGH the bullet is going out at 1500fps so is the last pellet but since it can't burn that fast it comes out still burning not makeing it worth while or efficante. now thats the facts

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:31:00 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on October 10, 2007, 04:23:13 PM

I like that. I'll give it a try one of these days.

I go to the range on my days off in to off season of hunting and play with my muzzleloader. I have sat at a bench for 5 to 6 hours. As long as you know what your max load is and don't go over it, your loads are endless.

The key to good accuracy is finding what your gun likes, and nothing does it better than time at the range.

Good luck when you start, it is fun and at times can be frustrating. But you will get to shoot a lot and that's always fun.

30-06man · « **Reply #45 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:36:49 PM »

obiously you didn't read my post. and my encore shoots well with 2 50 grain pellets at 125 yards. with a 195grain powerbelt. 3/4 of a inch. 1inch off hand

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »

30.06man, I have shot a lot of triple 7 pellets. I have shot 3 pellets for a long time and never have I seen a burning pellet come out my barrel.
I get a lot more than 100 fps from 3 triple 7 pellets compared to 2 triple 7 pellets. Like I said before, you need to find someone with a chronograph and do some shooting, you will see for yourself the difference. I could try to convince you all day, but until you actually do and see it for yourself you won't believe us.

Semisane · « **Reply #47 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:46:31 PM »

Hey 30.06man, here's a good example of powder differences. I recently shot three five-shot groups over a chronograph with 385 grain Hornady Great Plains bullets from the same gun. One group with 90 grains volume T-7 FFFG, one with 90 grains volume Pyrodex RS, and one with 90 grains volume Jim Shockey's Gold FFG. Here are the average velocities of each 5-shot group.

T-7 FFFG = 1583 fps
Pyrodex RS = 1144 fps
JSG = 1018 fps

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #48 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:47:53 PM »

Quote from: 30.06man on October 10, 2007, 04:36:49 PM

obiously you didn't read my post. and my encore shoots well with 2 50 grain pellets at 125 yards. with a 195grain powerbelt. 3/4 of a inch. 1inch off hand

So you are getting sub MOA groups with your Encore? MOA off hand. All I can say is that is some good groups, unbelievable but good. So if you are shooting 195 gr. power belts, you must be shooting a 45 Cal. Encore, because power belts don't come in 195 gr. for the 50 Cal.

30-06man · « **Reply #49 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:56:23 PM »

ok lets settle this. i have seen it come out of my encore and i have heard of others having the same problem. i was just comparing them with some easier numbers for the sake of time. but i had a choronagraph a very long time ago and sold it. i am just getting back into shooting and hunting i sold everything and was out for 10 years untill around 2 years ago due to some health issues and debt. so i am not as sharp as i once was and things have changed. i don't reload anymore and all that stuff is gone ecect some winchester primers for my muzzle loader. i had to go buy all new and start from scrach all over again. this year i am going to get back into shotshell reloading and get some more guns i have a total of 15 now but its no where close to the 100 i owned. i did know a lot about it and now i really am basically starting back. just hang in there while i catch up. ohh yeah how hard is it to get back into shotshell reloading for less than $200? and yeah i think i got lucky with that last set of groups. i was out for a day at the range and it was not windy and for some reason i was in one of those moments when i don't hardly move. it was only a 2 shot group and i am sure luck had something to do with it. and yeah its a 45cal encore. i installed the thumbhole stock for extra stabitly and that helped a lot. that jim shockys gold powder dosen't seem to look that good in stick form as i have seen it. i would have to shoot loose in it. as far as diffrences between triple seven and pyrodex i know that much but i don't like the app.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #50 on:** October 10, 2007, 04:57:53 PM »

I max my loads out at 90 grains pyrodex p when shooting the 410grain great plains conicals.

Excellent groups with this load but there is always room for improvement and maybe weighting my charges will help.

As for 30-06 shooting 3/4" groups, i can buy that. My .45 shooting a 225 powerbelt with 80 grains t7 will shoot a 3 shot 7/8" 100 yard grouping.

He still needs to learn about powder though

30-06man · « **Reply #51 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:02:52 PM »

hey i am just getting back into the swing of things. i bought the encore last year and haven't changed it. but i look stupid going out into the woods with 1980 camo and 2007 realtree ap all mixed up. i bought a 30.06 and loved the way it shot put a scope on it and got my muzzle loader all 2 years ago 2 days before muzzle loader season and haven't really done anything to them or changed anything although i need to

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #52 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:05:41 PM »

30.06man, if you need advice or help, just ask. There are a lot of us that put a lot of time in this. I am more than happy to give you any advice or help. Like I said in one of my posts, I am not trying to be rude. I have my e-mail listed here, I would also be glad to answer any question you may have via e-mail.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #53 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:06:42 PM »

Very understandable.

Whats wrong with 1980s camo? I use an 1800's styled muzzle loader with todays camo.

Personally i think any camo will do. Todays fancy stuff is just high priced to make it look like it will work.

30-06man · « **Reply #54 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:12:11 PM »

nothing if its not like mine. mine is millitary surplus and it is very uncomfortable. dicks sporting goods had a sale on a leafy suit and i think it ends tomorrow and i am going to try to get it and a rain suit. any maybe a remington model 870 wingmaster will get slipped in. just maybe.

1800's muzzle loaders are some of the best. i am in the middle of buliding a purcussion deer hunter rifle made up like a older gun kit from tradiotions and i am liking how its turning out. i just don't know what to do about blueing the barrel.

Semisane · « **Reply #55 on:** October 10, 2007, 05:55:48 PM »

.

Quote

Personally i think any camo will do. Todays fancy stuff is just high priced to make it look like it will work.

Right on! I hunt in khaki pants and a faded olive green fleece shirt most of the time. If you don't move and there's a little brush around, they don't see you.

30-06man · « **Reply #56 on:** October 11, 2007, 10:21:00 AM »

yup but i can reist the leafy suit. it was $30.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #57 on:** October 11, 2007, 01:27:28 PM »

Quote from: 30.06man on October 11, 2007, 10:21:00 AM

yup but i can reist the leafy suit. it was $30.

Well for that price, i think i would have even bought it lol. Just becareful in thick brush. The last stuff i bought from cabelas was thin and shredded up after looking for a deer i shot. I got screwed that year of hunting, Lost deer and a torn up brand new camo jacket.

30-06man · « **Reply #58 on:** October 11, 2007, 01:55:46 PM »

it should hold up it was $70 off. i have heard good from the ones that were on sale. it can have a scent lock inner shell put in. they also have a frachi over and under for $700. it was orginally at $1000. i am going to get it by the time the sales over. i passed on the wingmaster for the frachi. i was at the gun shop and i sold 2 new icons with leupold and zeiss scopes. a total of $2500. they also had nosler 30.06 bullets with the balistic tip on sale there. they were $15 for a box of 50 so i picked them up also. i am getting into it slowly but i will. next i will buy the primers and powder. any suggestions?

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #59 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:40:23 PM »

Pyrpdex RS or P and Goex are all i will use now.

Triple 7 started acting up on me and i decided its not worth the extra $$.

Some will say to use it because its not as corrosive. IMO, if you do your job and clean the rifle and dont brag about a 5 minute cleaning job, You wont have any problems. I'll usually spend 45 minutes to an hour cleaning just one of my muzzle loaders. When i swab my flintlocks, i change the water in the bucket twice to make sure i get good clean hot soapy water on the last bucket.

With my inlines, when i shoot pyrodex and know it will be put away for a while, i break the rifles down and soak the breech end of the barrel in hot soapy water and scrub the plug threads and everything. Extra work, yes, But it doesnt make any sense to spend money on muzzleloaders and then not take care of them properly.

Primers:
CCI or Winchester 777 is all i use. I favor the CCI's due to price and accuracy results.