So..I go from the frying pan into the fire...

[nyhunter863]

"A piece of land consisting of 4500 acres is eight square miles, (640 acres equals one section, one section equals one square mile) would you consider that a penned hunt?"   

I consider any wild animal in an enclosure that they can't get out of to be penned. 

 "Would hunting in this big an area not be a fair chase?"

 No, it would not in the strictest terms of what fair chase is and should be.   

 If these Texas ranchers can't make money raising cattle anymore, they shouldn't think that there won't be hunters condemning them for raising deer just as they would cattle and then trying to sell hunts as fair chase.  I guess they really don't care what many other hunters think since there are plenty of hunters who shell out the big dollars every year and  they are probably laughing at the rest of us all the way to the bank.  Although I doubt it will happen, I still would hope that more hunters would start becoming more vocal about where some are taking hunting.  It could start by us telling some of these hunting show producers not to film programs in enclosures since it only promotes more such activities.  Like I said, I won't hold my breathe here.  I have found out over the years that hunters don't always make the wisest choices when the greed for big trophy animals comes into play. 

[Graybeard]

Using your definition then there must be no fair chase hunting in the world as all land masses effectively are surrounded by water therefore "penning the deer in" with a water barrier they can't swim across. Some people carry this to the point of ridiculousness. A white tail deer on even one square mile of land is highly unlikely to know it is fenced in and really could care less. Unless the land is wide open with no trees and brush it can effectively elude hunters if it wants to.

I read about a study done years ago in which they put a bunch of deer into a pen of about ten acres or less in size and sent folks in to kill them out. Quite a few "hunters" when it and shot most of them but were never able to remove all of them.

To me folks who think an area of 8 square miles inside a fence isn't fair chase for white tail deer just don't truly have much experience at hunting them.

[nyhunter863]

I think many of us have hunted long enough to realize that a whitetail deer could allude a human even on a small piece of land.  I don't think that is the issue here.  The issue is fencing in a native species of wildlife and then hunting them.  This drastically changes what hunting in America has been since the beginning of time.  I also don't think comparing a fenced off piece of land, be it small or large can be compared to natural barriers like oceans, rivers, mountains, etc.  They are two totally different things.

[Graybeard]

You are most certainly entitled to that opinion even tho I don't agree with it. But then there is absolutely no reason why we have to agree either. Ethics are an area where there is little mutal agreement really.

[rockbilly]

Some folks just can't see the forest for the trees.

In defense of those Texas land owners that fence, and or lease their land for hunting.  Many things influence a ranchers ability to make a living ranching.  The federal government has allowed import meat, foreign governments will not allow American meat to be imported into their countries, drought, fire, and disease have cut deeply into their pockets.  People do what they must to survive.  Taxes and upkeep on a 4500 acres spread are very high, in order to keep from losing the property ranchers do what they must to meet expenses.  I can't condemn any man for trying to hang on to something that has likely been in the family for several generations, in most cases is all that they own.  Contrary to popular belief, most ranchers are not rich, they have few assets outside of their land, your checking account may hold more than theirs.

Bottom line, it is not a black and white argument, people do what they must to survive.  Funny, I see many other states today where "lease" hunting is becoming very popular, and how about states that charge an arm and leg to hunt on public land?  With the population increase, number of new hunters, and limited amount of land, you can only expect it to become increasingly harder to find a place to hunt, and when you do, hold on to your wallet.

Another thing that has an impact on hunting, many of the celebrities and new millionaires are buying up land and establishing it a wildlife refuge area, or corporations are buying and using it as a perk for their clients.

[ironglow]

     I can understand the rancher's dilemma..finding a way to KEEP his ranch, and the practice is just starting here in the northeast on managed woodlands.

      However, One of the things that troubles me with the "managed" herds and lands is that we are not getting many NEW hunters to replace us old guys.

  We should gain members in the hunting fraternity, or we will lose any political clout we ever had.

   Youngsters have many other diversions, it's hard enough to attract them to the sport these days without their being hit with a big fee just for a place to plant their butt on a stand !


     The managed areas may be killing the goose that laid the golden egg...

[elmer]

In many areas along the east coast (particularly the northeast) the deer habitat areas are smaller than many Texas ranches. The deer are effectively penned in by development. Does this mean they should stop hunting because they are in fact hunting penned deer?

[DavOh]

In many areas along the east coast (particularly the northeast) the deer habitat areas are smaller than many Texas ranches. The deer are effectively penned in by development. Does this mean they should stop hunting because they are in fact hunting penned deer?

Good point Elmer, very good point....

But I wont hunt those environments either....  Bottom line is, people hunt how they can, when they can, and where they can.... if you cant afford to travel to hunt, then you have to locate somewhere local to hunt... myself, I choose to do both.  My family has 1700 acres of lowfenced property in the Texas Hillcountry.  Yes I'm very blessed by this fact.  But I cant afford to drive 350 miles every weekend.... I still seek out local spots to get my but in the stand as often as possible.  Some years I'm lucky, others, not so much.

as for the TV Shows..... GET A TIVO OR DVR..... for the win.... seriously, I NEVER watch commercials for anythign I watch, and I never have to worry about having something to watch or worry about missing my favorite shows....

DVR(Digital Video Recorder),   watch the hunt and ignore the infomercial.... Works great for TV movies or Network TV shows.

There are a few shows I'll watch through... the ones that talk as much about the trip as they do about the hunt and products...

Make no mistake about it folks, it's only a matter of time before hunting is gone completely...   All I can do is fight to keep it around for my kids... it'll be up to them for the future.  They have to carry the torch,  we wont be around to encourage them and carry it for them forever.  One thing about history, things always change.  Even great things come to an end.  I'm afraid we're on the twilight of our era folks, or near it anyways.

[Swampman]

I don't have a problem with it.  If I could afford it, I'd go shoot a big one on some ranch every year.  I can't, so I have to hunt on public land which really sucks big time.  It's all I have.  If we are real lucky we might see one spike per season.  Mostly we aren't that lucky, and we can't even shoot a doe.

[Brithunter]

Hmmmmm, Texas is pretty much bought and leased up.  Do we see a parallel with England where only the rich can hunt?

   Now that is a laugh. You see I live in England and I also hunt, Deer, Fox, Rabbit, Duck, Goose, Pheasant and Partridge when the opertunity presnts itself. My income is very low in fact I doubt you believe on what I live on. Now it's true that there is no public hunting land unless you count the foreshore for waterfowl and that's something I have never done yet but perhaps maybe this winter, we will see how it pans out.

    Take today for instance I took a stroll up the field and got nice sized Rabbit with my 12 bore Cogswell & Harrison SxS non Ejector shotgun using Winchester GB Classic #6 shot cartridge, then later this afternoon took a walk up the field carrying a single barrel Baikel 12 bore loaded with a Winchester Western #5 cartridge and score two Pheasents with one shot. One of which was white! Once I get the camera software conflict sorted or my old IMB puter hooked up to the net I will post pictures of today's little bag. Oh those winchester cartridge are loaded in Italy where Olin has a plant for the European market and they are 65mm case length to cater for the 2 1/2" chambers of the old Cogswell.

   I hunted once in the US for Whitetail in Northern Missouri back in 2003 and it was with a friend and his brothers on a 1100 acre farm through a Hunt club they belong to. My guest fee was $531 US if I remember correctly will have to fire up the old IBM and check the old e-mails to check on the fee. However I had a wonderful trip met some wonderful folks and took 3 Whitetails including a fairly nice 9 point Buck. Back then I was working as a Bus driver on a route serving London Gatwick Airport and the two neighbouring towns, not highly paid but not really poor either. Now I help care for my parents full time.

    It seems that too many Americans get their information from the main stream media  you would not believe how may times I have been told on the internet that us folks living in the UK cannot own and shoot guns!

    Did you know that we can hunt deer all year round?

    That there is no season on rabbits? we can hunt them all year as well

    Wood Pigeons ( Doves to you) are agricultural pests and so again there is no season on them and no bag limits!

      Grey Squirrel are again pests so no limits and no seasons!

      Fox ( we only have Red Foxes) again no bag limit and no seasons

      Pheasants do have a season but no bag limit

      Partridge again do have a season but no bag limit

     Hare has a season but no bag limits!


a little squirrel foray with a .22 BSA rifle fitted with a silencer.


A nice Dog fox, rifle is a BSA Model E in .303


4 pt Roe Buck shot with 7x57


Young rabbit shot with the BSA, you can see the silencer on the barrel here.


Another Dog Fox this time shot with a 30-30


Young Muntjac Doe. The rifle is my 30-30 bolt action.

  Get the idea? hunting here is not difficult

   

     We did have a Game Licence which has just been scrapped, it cost £6 ($12 US ) and lasted a year!

     Even in our small crowed (compared to the US) country Deer are shot with rifle, in fact it's illegal unless under special circumstances to shoot deer with a shotgun and venison can be sold and is done commercially as are pigeons, rabbits, hare, pheasants and partridges through game dealers so if you shoot too much it's not wasted you simply contact the local game dealer and seel it to them providing the carcase is good and clean. although they have just introduced some hygene laws covering this. a European thing I think but hey I have never sold any as I use all I shoot myself.

[Jal5]

Many thanks Brithunter for enlightening all of us over here! I had no idea really about your hunting opportunities and only believed what I read about, but pictures are worth a thousand words every time. You have a lot more opportunities for our sport year round than we do. Good luck hunting and be safe this season.

Joe

[ironglow]

   Thanks for the input Brithunter;

      I am sure you cleared up some misconceptions, including some of my own !

   I believe that some of the misconceptions with owning firearms is more with handguns, where we tend to think blanket restrictions cover ALL guns there .

   Then too if I am informed correctly, all guns must be registered and purchase of any new firearm is rather complicated..is that correct ?

    Having spent some years hunting with terriers (Jack Russells), I am well aware of a vibrant terrier sport in the UK and most of our best earth dog strains have been imported from there . BTW: the dog in the picture..is that a Patterdale or a Staffordshire Bull terrier ! Rather hard getting a size fix from the photo..

        My only brush with European field sports was during my 2.5 year stint in the Army in Germany in the 1960s. I figured it to be rather restrictive there, compared to here.

  It seems fishing was not by an annual license but by daily rental of a portion of a stream (e.g. 100 meters).
   
    Wild game could be sold in the market, in fact if the hunter did not pay extra for the meat permit on a trophy animal, it would be sold by the govt anyway..
     Here, at least in my home state, it is illegal to sell wild game, as far as I know..but we can give the meat away. There are organizations that take fresh, donated venison for the poor, homeless etc..
   
   Hunting for wild boar was under strict supervision of the forestmiester and he would point out which hog to shoot !

   Most hunting, even for rabbits, was accompanied by much specified dress and ceremonies..blowing little bugles to indicate the strike on game, the chase, the kill and coup de gras (taps?) & etc.

   For an old country boy, this was much more formalized and ritual than I craved.

    Now some of this I learned from our rod & gun club on my Army post and some I must admit, was hearsay....

   Now perhaps, one of our German friends will straighten out any misconceptions I have...LOL

   BTW: I spent a few moments admiring that little BSA .22 of yours..nice !

     

[Brithunter]

Hi ironglow,

        Well you answers will take a little while so I ask you to be patient whilst i work through them:-

I believe that some of the misconceptions with owning firearms is more with handguns, where we tend to think blanket restrictions cover ALL guns there .

   Then too if I am informed correctly, all guns must be registered and purchase of any new firearm is rather complicated..is that correct ?

     Not all guns require registration or licensing. But to explain the ins and outs of the laws would require a very long reply. Pistols of course were banned or so the Govrnment thought however they missed a few things for instance Long barreled pistols with permanantly attached wrist braces are still allowed as are some heritiage pistols. With heritage pistols you can have them at home but cannot shoot them or have an ammunition, if you want to shoot them then they must be kept as one of the heritage centers around the UK.

    Shotguns for the most part are classed as Section 2 and require a Shotgun certificate and any shotguns you buy are entered onto the certificate, when not in use they should be secured from unauthorised access which would normally mean a steel cabinet but there are other measures whcih can be employed. Barrels are not to be less tha 24" which causes some problems with some old Englisg guns as they had barrels of about 20" which was popular at one time. these short barreled guns fall into section 1 samne as firearms e.g Rifles. Semi Auto Shotguns that can only take two cartridges in the magazine are also section 2 but ones that hold more than two are section 1.

     Section 1 firearms such as rifles are more strictly licensed and a "Good reason" this good reason is the bug bear of the whole system as the police adminsister teh system and they invent their own interpritations for instance acquiring another rifle just to shoot it is not a good reason? no I am not joking. The otehr problem area is when you wish to have more than a few firearms. The laws do not have any numbers mentioned as limits. There is a document called "Guidence to police" which states that once 12 firearms have been reached consideration should be given to a centrally monitored alarm system. Our Police forces use this as a sort of tax or finacial  punishment as they often insisit of the most expensive provider.

     Now if your serious about collecting firearms and partake in collecting clubs and associations this sevrely weakens the Police objections tends to pull the rug from under their feet as if the particulr firearm fits a place in your collection they have trouble refusing. However tehy can or it seems they can stop you from shootign it even if they don't seem to be able to stop you acquiring it.

     Hunting with dogs you might not know it but recently the hunting with dogs was outlawed in Britain. The Labour party were aiming mainly at Fox Hunting whcih they saw as the provedence of the rich yet of course a lot of normal working class folks were involved in Fox Hunting. Of course in their ignorance banning hunting with dogs has of course stopped not only fox hunting but vermin c0ontrol like rats and rabbits. The law is a right mess and very confusing but of course the authors of this mess will not admit they got it wrong.

    Ah fishing has been vastly altered in recent years, clubs have been getting control of waters even common waters which any commoner should have rights to use and denying acces to all but their club members. Paying day tickets on private waters including rivers and streams have always been here and are common on Trout and Salmon waters. The mainland Europeans have some very strange to us Rituals about hunting. If the government here in the UK would get it's act together we could have Wild Boar huntign here in the UK again as after the Hurricane of 1987 which caused severe damage to property and our contry side smashign whole woods, this allowed Wild Boar to escape from farms where they were beign raised for the meat trade. Animal rights idiots have release hundreds more by cutting and teearing down fences on Boar farms allowing more to escape in recent years. These Boar have of course not gone on to live quitely in peace and retiremnet which the idiots seems to think but have bred and increased spreading across the South of England and now have reached pest proportions in places yet to shoot them is illegal at present and the government department responsible for this area has been deliberating about this for over a year now and is still no nearer to deciding what needds to be done to control the Boar. Meanwhile further animal rights idiots want to re-introduce Wolves to Scotland to help control the Deer population. The wolves of course will onyl hunt and kill deer and not sheep, grouse and peoples pets ............... yeah right oh!

      Now that BSA is one of two Supersports I have the other has it's full length barrel and iron sights and is a later version with a dovetailed action and here it is with an earlier BSA Sportsman Five:-



The Supersport Five has a fairly heavy barrel which gives superb accuracy and often quite nicely figured wood:-







Hope that helps.

[ironglow]

 
   Wow ! That's a tragedy to lose the sport and function of so many splendid bloodlines of dogs that have been bred in the UK..

  Sure, some laws you have seem stupid..but then many of ours fall into the same category ! It is a bit different here, being that we have the Federal govt to deal with, but more importantly, we have 50 separate states to deal with..which is where most of the laws directly affecting each of us originate.
  Imagine this, compared to your laws..In my state (NY) we can have (by permit) any handgun, short or long..but not allowed without a very special permit, any kind of hand/wrist brace.
   
    Folks here lament your gun laws..but being caught here with a silencer or suppressor is normally good for a serious meeting with a judge.

   As with your case, legislators are loathe to admit that they goofed..so the hunter/sportsman often must take years for them to get a mess straightened out !

  Here in NY State, about 2/3 of the state has been restricted to "shotguns only" for big game..essentially, deer & bear. Now, contrary to what a lot of folks think, much of NY State is rural, wooded and hilly with comparatively low population. Our population is mainly centered at NY City...up the Hudson R to Albany and east along the Mohawk R and Erie Canal to Buffalo.
  Finally about 2 years ago, after many years of petitioning etc, they have allowed centerfire rifles in many of the rural counties. Since then, it appears that shooting accidents while hunting in these counties has decreased dramatically.
   I use a Marlin 336C in 30/30. it works well for me in  my own woodlands as well as those I hunt besides.
 
  Those BSAs are sure nice..remind me of the classic Winchesters of years ago..beautiful..

[warrior1]

i'm not sure which shows they are but a couple of them are fair chase. still it must be nice to make a living out of
hunting and fishing. dan

[ironglow]

  I don't consider any area where the game animal can easily get through, under or over the fence, to be a "fenced in area"..after all, they are not really "fenced in" after all.

  I am a bit queasy also about raising crops and placing caches of enticement for deer ( salt, minerals, grain etc) but that is just a personal view.

   One could compare it to baiting a hook, I guess..but in a tightly fenced area, it's somewhat like baiting a hook and dropping it in a fishbowl..
   
    ...But...where it's legal...it's legal.

[buck460XVR]

 
   
    ...But...where it's legal...it's legal.

yes...and as fellow hunters and gun owners we should support  others like us, their opportunities to hunt and use their firearms within the confines of the law. We do not however, hafta agree with their ethics and methods. That's the difference between a hunter and a shooter. My opinions on pest/non-game animals is somewhat different, but when it comes to hunting  game animals, I feel one should have respect enough for their quarry to use effective and humane ways to dispatch them at the POK with little risk of wounding and not retrieving. I believe in the phrase "fair chase"...... which to me, means to use tactics and methods which are considered by most as sporting, using woodsmanship, knowledge of the quarry, and skill with the weapon of choice to establish success. They say most deer live and die in the same square mile in which they were born. In the right conditions, I'm sure a high fence ranch of an area this size  or larger with sufficient cover and reasonable hunting pressure could be considered fair chase. Just as the unrestricted release of pheasants to an area before the hunting season or session can. But the shooting of game animals released and  restricted to small areas and made to suffer before and after the hunt, and the use of non-sporting methods by slob hunters  could most certainly wreck it for all of us. We need to display a positive image to those that don't hunt or use firearms.......they outnumber us. They tolerate us, even tho these rights have been given to us by state and federal constitutions. Your non-hunting neighbor aint gonna mind you discreetly taking a deer from the woods behind your house cause he's tired of havin' his bird feeder trashed,  but shootin' the same deer from your back porch while it's at said bird feeder..... more'n likely is gonna piss him off.

[ironglow]

   In fairness to fenced but not baited areas..a whitetail can hide in the skimpiest cover..doesn't take much !
  Tests have been run where experienced hunters have walked past deer hiding not 30 feet from them in very sparse cover.
   I must admit to one time having walked across a hayfield that was mowed not long before deer season,
   where there as only a small patch of hay still standing..perhaps 3' x 20' in size.

   After passing by the small patch of hay, I looked back see a trophy buck just leaving the scene..
    by then, too far for an ethical shot with a shotgun ...