Author Topic: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243  (Read 3368 times)

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Offline just bill

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2007, 12:46:47 AM »
Can't speak for others.  But, for me posting photos of a rifles better 3 shot groups regardless of yardage tells me little to nothing about it's average accuracy.

3 shot groups move.  This link explains it best  http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

I had a heavy barrel Tikka 22-250 T3 Varmint at 300 yards it would occasionally cut 3 shots, touching,easily covered by a dime.  But it averaged 2.5" on a 5x5 grouping.  Big differance.

My lil CZ 17hmr has put 3 shots inside moa at 300 yards many times.  But it sure won't average moa 5 shot groups at 300 in zero wind.

10 shot groups like 5x5's tell the real story.

Put 2 more 3 shot groups over top those first ones and you will be showing something.

The Remington SPS, Savage base model and Stevens 200.  All have the cheapest milk jug plastic stocks possibly made.  Test's, real reports and from my experience (savage) show they will flex, even with the addition of a bi-pod.  I have no problem with a quality synthetic (like H & S) but personally I could not live with those stocks and would have to replase asap.  So "ka-ching" there is another few hundred bucks.  It's like building a house, it starts with a solid foundation.  Those are not solid foundations they are amongst the weakest,flex,move lack consistancy for the long haul.  By the way, don't leave them sitting in the sun behind glass to long either (chuckle)

Handis are not bench guns they are hunting guns.  Few rifles balance as well between the hands, carry as well, at any price.  In that price range I would opt for the Handi with the laminant stock.  If going Rem. or Savage bolt you may as well step up and buy either with the H & S stocks (both companys high end have them) or be willing to swap out to simile or laminate which puts you back into that price range anyways.

 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2007, 03:49:11 AM »
Very good article & I agree in principle. Due to trying to get this 270 ready for the trip, most of my groups were 3 shot groups. But, while shooting these groups & making minor scope adjustments, the groups were very consistant & "moved" when I moved them
with the scope. I have experienced the same thing that your "hero" experienced with his groups & it happens alot. But is a good example of why I seldom use the word NEVER because it doesn't apply with this rifle as the groups did not "move" after sighting in. The animals shot this week were from 80 yards or so for the closest to over 400 yards for 2 of the Mule Deer & the POI was spot on.
The animals are iced down & the proofs in the pudding.
The statement I made about regardless of position & rest used, etc. was in reference to properly set-up rifles. All of these apply to my Sendero's & all but one to this Model 700ADL, which is a wood stock BTW. It has a pressure point, so I did not use a bipod. I can float
it, glass bed the floated channel & bed the receiver & spend very little money. So yes again, you can spend alot of money to prep them,
but this is yet another example to not say NEVER or ALWAYS. I know a couple of guys who "rough up" the receiver of the REM tupperware stocks & it sticks, & works well, so some don't have to spend the dollars you mentioned.
I agree that the Handis handle very well & I like them & they have their place, but for some hunts, I KNOW what I need to carry.

Thanks again for the article, it is good for novices or those who only shoot 3 shot groups & can be a real eye opener as I have found out many years ago. For others in this thread such as Mac, this is old info, Mac has posted 10 shot groups in the past & no doubt Dale is aware of this too. For those that have been around awhile, we can figure out accuracy trends with a rifle, be they 3 shot 5, 10 or 30 round groups. I learn additional info after I shoot alot of groups with a rifle by occassionally taking the rifle out to my table & shoot 1 shot from a cold barrel & see if it is in the overall group area & this tells me a good deal what to expect when I shoot 1 round at a Deer from a cold barrel while hunting. There is more involved than just how many shots are in a group.
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Offline SM Bob

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2007, 04:07:06 AM »

The Remington SPS, Savage base model and Stevens 200.  All have the cheapest milk jug plastic stocks possibly made. at price range anyways.

 

You've got that right Pal! They aren't even good enough to stir paint with IMHO.

                     Robert

Offline nomosendero

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2007, 04:19:26 AM »

The Remington SPS, Savage base model and Stevens 200.  All have the cheapest milk jug plastic stocks possibly made. at price range anyways.

 

You've got that right Pal! They aren't even good enough to stir paint with IMHO.

                     Robert


Sounds wonderful, but as I said before, some know how to work with some of these stocks.
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Offline aulrich

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2007, 04:23:47 AM »
I am a fan of both, in chamberings they have in common I lean towards the stevens. Though I would skip 243 and go to 7-08 should be manageable to shoot (did not say how old your boys are), and properly enough power to handle everything up to the big bears.  Now throw in Varmint/predator hunting then I would lean back to the handi and the swap barrel.

I think normal accuracy potential is about the same with both, The stevens has maybe an edge in ease of getting that potential.

My 11 year old finds a standard profile handi a bit too heavy in the left hand he still finds the super light a bit heavy but that is changing fast.   The Stevens is more evenly balanced and the way he is growing I may not need a youth stock next year.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2007, 05:05:45 AM »


Thanks Rod......I like doing the freezer test with them...it is another way of seeing if your bedding and ammo is on or not...Stick the rifle and ammo in a refrigerator and get it down to the temperature range you most likely will be hunting at... and shoot it within a couple minutes of taking it out...I have...several times...I know when a particular load will be off...and just about to within 5fps for any deviation on the ammo...and it will show if your bedding job is doing what it is suppose to be doing rather quickly as well...I take great pride in my load development...always have...and I guarantee you my loads are mostly all top end performance loads...not starting loads...It's a single shot...and I maximize that first shot...knowing full well there may not be another...Now...I do have some very super accurate mid range loads as well...as nomosendaro can attest to but to me...if you can achieve superior accuracy with the mid range loads...then you most likely will have another in the higher node too...and the fun part for me is finding it...The Handi's work equally well at both levels if it is properly assembled and tuned... which is why it cracks me up when folks try to tell me other wise...

cascadedad...I made sure there was no RTV in the forearm stud hole this time...I had removed a lot of wood from the complete fore arm...more than most folks would...It doesn't touch except for just a tiny amount on the forearm spacer in the rear on the very back end on the top of it...I wanted it as solid as I could get it in the time I had to do it in..I originally planned on steel bedding it a little in the hole...but didn't have time for it to cure and shoot it the next day..I RTV bedded it before I went to bed...and removed it the following morning for a slight clean up...then headed to the range to shoot...I have a second matching fore arm for it...and most likely will steel bed it and RTV bed it like this one just to see how it does...This one does great as it is...so I most likely will put a zip insert in to keep from compressing the flange on the screw into the wood...

10 shot groups are just fine and dandy for most bolt guns...but...repeatable 3 shot groups for a break action single shot big game rifle is more than adequate to show you what you need to know about it..Like I said...this barrel is a shooter and these groups came at the end of a full day of shooting..and high temperatures...Now...I have shot my fair share of 10 shot groups with them...and most likely will many times down the road...but these were work up loads showing the bedding job and the potential for using this powder/bullet combination...and will be tweaked a little more and shot fresh..I had many folks wanting to see how this powder would do...and were waiting for me to tell them...

With our Handi's...my main reason to bed them as I do...is to be able to shoot them from a normal bench position and to make them consistent...hot or cold...I have succeeded on both accounts on any rifle I have done this to that has had a perfectly fitted barrel & lock up on..I can show you  other groups of targets I have targets I have shot that show 4- 5 shot groups that were shot within 3 minutes total  and all measuring under 1/2" as well...so I know what I know a little about tuning these Handi's to be consistent tack drivers...at the yardages I shoot them at...If it doesn't "tell" you anything...I am sorry...but wasting a ton of ammo these days just to shoot 10 shot groups to make folks feel happy isn't my forte' not when I already know it will hold it's zero...hot or cold...These rifles react differently than bolt guns...which is why many folks can never master them...and they start putting them down all the time...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2007, 06:39:05 AM »
I have been checking and following this thread occasionally and it has been of some interest with good info and has also given me a few chuckles. I had particular interest and was in agreement with this part of one of nomosendero's posts:

"I learn additional info after I shoot alot of groups with a rifle by occasionally taking the rifle out to my table & shoot 1 shot from a cold barrel & see if it is in the overall group area & this tells me a good deal what to expect when I shoot 1 round at a Deer from a cold barrel while hunting. There is more involved than just how many shots are in a group. "

I am primarily a hunter and recreational shooter, not an avid bench rest guy. The hunter and carnivore side of me has great interest in the repeatable and dependable one shot group from a gun. They are what puts meat on the table in my neck of the woods. I have yet to see a deer, hog, bear, squirrel, or rabbit that needed a nice small 3, 5, 10, 20, or 30 shot group to be brought to the pot. And when it gets to hunting varmints the need for that first accurate shot around here even increases. Nice small 10 to 30 shot groups from a barrel in quick succession while the barrel gets warmer and warmer may be nice for PD shooting but there are not any PD's in my area. A decent 3 shot group is MORE than is required for hunting around here and a 2 shot group would do, and that only if the first shot did not close the case. As I first said, it is that first repeatable and dependable shot that really counts....<><....:) 
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline cascadedad

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2007, 07:24:52 AM »
I will second MSP Ret's post.

What each person needs/wants from their rifles can be COMPLETELY different.  I have seen on numerous occasions on this site where someone will kind of poopoo someone else's results they are getting because they don't "measure up" to bench rest standards, or heck any kind of standard for that matter, for example what a gun is SUPPOSED to look like, or what is UGLY.

Some have a very difficult time comprehending that there might be a different thought pattern than their own and then complementing someone for reaching their goal, because they aren't up to their own standard or way of thinking.  I might think your truck is a piece of junk, the wrong brand, the wrong color, underpowered and everything else, but if you really want to drive a Dodge.........Hey, I'm happy for you.  ;D ;D  Same with your rifles and your shooting.

Offline d_hiker

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2007, 07:59:20 AM »
cascadedad,  I agree with you whole heartedly.  Last time I went prairie dog shooting I had a blast and I know I didn't hit near as many p-dogs as either of the guys in the group.  I am sure that it is more my ability than my Handis' problem.  I would say that I spent at least a third of my time looking through the binos and I enjoyed that.  I did also like to shoot and connect with my targets, but the trip was the fun part for me.  For one of the other guys the primary and only purpose was to shoot and see how far he could connect with targets.  He is a good shooter connecting with p-dogs at 500 to 600 yards.  That is what he wanted to do.  I wanted to take the trip and shoot.  If I hadn't hit any, then I would have been disappointed, but I did hit. 

The trip was also a big confidence builder for me.  Before I had not done much shooting beyond 100 yards and even considered that a long shot on occasion.  But here I was hitting a target no bigger than a short legged cat (in case you don't know how big a prairie dog is) consistently at 200 to 300 yards.  Even then I didn't fully realize it until an antelope walked in front of us while we were shooting at about 300 yards.  After spending 2 days looking at p-dogs through a scope, that antelope was huge in the scope.  (No one took a shot at him if any of you were wondering.)  I know if I had the proper caliber I could hit an antelope or deer out to 300 yards.

We are all in this for our own various reasons.  When I first joined GBO I was somewhat intimidated by the bench-rest type of accuracy people were getting.  Heck, I was glad to be able to get it on paper.  I have seen 100 yard 3 shot groups of mine as small as 1" with 2 of them touching, but those aren't too often.  Most are like 2" to 3" at 100 yards.  I know that is close enough for me to hit what I want at 100 yards.  If I were squirrel hunting I wouldn't be shooting that far anyway. 

I now feel like I belong to this community and occasionally can contribute something to help someone else.  This is a great place to hang out and a great bunch of people.
"IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!!"

Offline cascadedad

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2007, 08:13:32 AM »
Great Job d_hiker!!!!!  Having a great time is what it is ALL about.

I LOVE to hunt/shoot pheasant.  But, the BEST times I have been pheasant hunting, I wasn't holding a gun......... I was holding a camera.  I was having a great time because I was watching and photographing my oldest son and our lab work together as a team.  Giving him a high-5 when he connects and Abby makes a great flush and retrieve, or razzing him when he misses........that guys, is what I live for.  It's great if someone else has a $10,000 shotgun and can hit 25/25 at skeet or trap or whatever, but that aint what floats my boat.

We are all different, thank goodness.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2007, 08:49:22 AM »


Yup...we all have our own comfort level and expectations of what we want from our rifles..Time and practice with accurate guns changes everyone...I saw a brand new shooter struggling with his Savage 30-06 the other day...while shooting...I watched in amazement while he blasted away with 3 full boxes of factory loads and put 4 hits in a 10" splatter target at 100 yards...I asked if he was doing ok and needed any help...he hesitated and asked if I would look at his rifle because it wasn't shooting right...He explained that he had just gotten it a few days before and had a scope mounted on it and was going to go on his first deer hunt with his co-workers...soon...He was worried he would " goof up " and flub the shot...as he said...I agreed to help...and luckily I had all of my cleaning equipment with me ...I showed him how to clean it good...He said he wiped it off at home after getting it home from buying it... and didn't know how to clean it... ::) After an hour of cleaning..and patching it dry..and making a list for him on what to buy when he goes to the store...we hung a new target at 100 yards and I had him shoot it real slow and deliberate...He put his first 3 shots in a 4" circle and was over joyed..I adjusted his scope..and zeroed it 2" high...moved his target out to 200 yards...and he shot again...and did about the same...His confidence was sky high as compared to what it was a couple hours earlier..Did I try to make him shoot 1/2" groups...nope...I got him to be comfortable with his ability...In time I expect him to do better...but even if he doesn't...he still will be able to take any deer within 200 yards of him...and I really don't think he would care if his groups were itty bitty single holes or not...He was happy with his results...and that's the moral of the story...Be happy with what you can do...If you want to do better and don't know how...Ask...

Mac
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Offline cascadedad

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2007, 09:09:10 AM »
Good job Mac!!!  That guy for sure will never forget you and what you did for him.

Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2007, 09:20:22 AM »
Very good story thanks for sharing.   Dale
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2007, 03:11:25 PM »
Yup, as has often been said, it's the guys here that make this site great. Congratulations to all. Mac great job on helping that guy on the range. Next time you see him tell him about this site and perhaps we can get him to become a one-shot Handi guy. If we all could help just one person as Mac did our shooting and hunting sports would grow considerably....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Mac11700

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2007, 03:29:41 PM »


Thanks Andy...He looked at my Handi's...that I had with me...but...he doesn't think he's ready to use one...he figures he might need all those extra shots...  :-X I tried telling him to just concentrate on making the first shot count and how to control his breathing and all......but...you know it is with new hunters...they have to learn for themselves...That's ok though...I think he will do ok...Hopefully his co-workers put him in a good spot and he gets a crack at a nice buck...and I am sure I will see him again at the range...Maybe next time...if he wants he shoot some of my rifles...He passed this time around...It's a good thing too...he would have been spoiled afterwards... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Mac
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Offline bluebayou

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2007, 06:57:37 PM »
A day late as usual, but here is my 2 cents:

I have a Stevens 200 in 223.  It is very accurate with 55 and 60 grain ammo of all types tried.  The stock was ugly and a flimsy piece of "stuff".  I bedded it with epoxy, a shim, and a machine screw to support the tang (I know sacrilege).  I then sprayed it with Duplicolor bedliner after drawknifing the mold lines off the stock.  It is sub MOA effectively all of the time, with some truly little bitty groups. 

The Stevens has a hard slab of rubber for a recoil pad (not an issue on 223, just making observation).  It is, by Savage Marketing Dept own admission, made using wornout stock molds for the 10/110 series rifles. 

I have had 4 barrels on my Handi frame, 223, 308, 44, 357.  The 223 was a literal tackdriver, single hole rifle with ONLY 45 Win White Box ammo.  The 308 was a 2" rifle and the 44 slugged out at .432.  The 357 is a work in progress.

I am sorry to rain on the Handi parade, but there are few real bargains.  The rifle is at $200-250 price point and so is Mossberg ATR and Stevens 200.  They are all great hunting rifles for the average hunter, not necessarily for the gun nut crowd.   

The die hard Handi people love them because you like to tinker and improve things.  You can more or less say, "I did this".  That's cool.  Same here, but don't kid yourselves about the consistency of any rifle under, say, $400. 

The Remington 700 is a better rifle, it is a simple fact.  But it is also in a different price class, and is apples to oranges.

Handi is better finished than Stevens, especially with wood.  I second what Partsman says about visibility of hammer being cocked.  My father in law disagrees and says that a child can't safely lower hammer on live round.  Swapping barrels CHEAPER and easier on Handi. 

Stevens is repeater......is probably as inconsistent as Handi in quality/accuracy.  I got a good one and I love it for plinking.

To answer the question then, I would say to buy the Handi.  But not because it is an awesome rifle.  In this price category it fulfills your need to have a youth hunting rifle, and is barrel swappable with mechanical skill at the range. 

Rifles themselves are like groups.  We remember the best rifles and we remember the best groups.  We blame poor groups on wind, or pulling the shot, or Ramadan.  With rifles we take the best shooting Handis to the range and shuffle the lesser ones to the back of the safe or closet.  Sure, I fired a single hole group that was less than .250 inches ONE time with my 7-08.  But it isn't a quarter MOA rifle.  It was a statistical anomaly. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic
Laugh if you want, but this is how your brain really works.  And, yes, I have pretty advanced degree to be working at Wal-Mart. 

Offline Dave Allen

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2007, 08:57:21 PM »
hello...the nef..or..steven's..it's a tough one..both lower dollar rifle's..i would go with the nef..yes i have had my up's & down's with them..yet i can't get over the amount of plastic in a steven's rifle..the nef is a better looking rifle..look's don't mean everything..that said i can't get over the ugly look's of a steven's..yes i do have a steven's..& it's a good shooter..."but" i don't like it..sound's crazy to some..it is..what it is..i still don't like it..i cammo painted it & for the money spent i don't feel bad..it's a truck-brush gun..

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2007, 05:09:16 AM »
When I buy a rifle I buy it to keep it forever, or until the day I die, which ever comes first. That being said, value and resale matters.....but only on paper. Kind of like the value of my house. I occasionally look in the Sunday real estate section to see what homes sell for. I go WOW...look what my house is worth. But that doesn't pay my electric bill for the next month.

Handi's are good low end price range guns. However, For me the single shot gun is the Thompson Center. Easy to buy barrels for and easy to buy accessories for. And quality is what quality is. Now, that being said I wont' argue that any other rifle is "more accurate" than the less expensive Handi. I own 1 Handi and I like it, use it and won't sell it.

I also own a Stevens 200. Yeah, the stock is ugly. Actually it's Ugly....with a capital "U". But, it's a low end price range bolt action rifle. You gotta figure that to make a bolt action gun in that price range, they gotta sacrifice somewhere....and the stock is where it was "hacked 'n whacked".

But the Stevens, just like the Handi, can be tweeked with to make it an even more accurate rifle. Bed the action using Davcon....and if you reload, try Nosler's or Berger VLD's.

It's tough to get a vote for a Savage\Stevens on a Handi forum. But I'll go against the grain and put one in for the Stevens 200. Good accuracy for a low cost bolt action rifle. If the kid want's to in the future, let him save his penny's and get a stock from Boyd's and either read up on how to install it (if he is good with his hands) or have a gunsmith do it. That will get rid of Ugly! That will also give better groups. And he can also have the gunsmith install an aftermarket trigger (Timmy) if he saves a few more pennys.

So, if the gun you get him now, he will still have when he is 50...get him the Stevens. He can upgrade it and still shoot deer for a lifetime. And it won't cost him an arm 'n a leg. And those cost of a new stock 'n trigger...he doesn't have to do it....but if he want's to...they can be spread over several years and the "pain" of the cash outflow is not felt as much.

MHO

Dave

Offline Fred M

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2007, 07:09:25 AM »
Dave .
This my idea too. I bought a Stevens 200 7mm-08 for a kid c/w scope. Made
up 10 rounds of 120g V-max with 14gr 700x to sight it in and fire a 5 shot test group at 25yrds. all 5 shots went into one hole. The group measuerd at 0.17".

I did a little work on the trigger by reducing the spring tension.  In about two weeks
I will take the gun with 50 rounds of these light loads to the kids and his  dad.

This is my contribution to a new up comming hunter. I choose the 200 rather than a Handi because these people out in the country don't too much tinkering with guns.

The way the 200 shoots the kid wont be disappointed with a poor shooting gun.
With little practice he should be able to hit a gopher at 100yrds.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline just bill

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2007, 03:31:03 AM »
Maybe the best value in a American made .243 is the Mossberg ATR http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=8&section=products

Walnut,Free Floated B.R. and excellent accuracy reported in gun mag reviews.

The Mossberg 4x4 is another but starts at 25-06.

Mossberg may be THE sleeper

MSRP - about $350.00 for the ATR with Walnut  MSRP about $450.00 for the 4x4 with Walnut or Laminante.

I suggest taking a close look at them if you can find one.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2007, 04:14:29 AM »
I have an old Mossberg in .308. It is a bolt action with a butterknife bolt handle and a full length Mannlicher walnut stock with a blued steel nosecap IIRC. It has a trigger that could use some work with some creep but is very accurate. It has a 4 power scope on it and my son took his second deer with it. It really is a nice gun. Although it is a bit heavier and not as handy as a Handi....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Mac11700

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2007, 04:53:49 AM »


I have heard some good & bad about the ATR's & the 4x4's...but mostly that they are pretty good shooters...I don't think I'll say they are the best buy...but will say it wouldn't hurt to check them out...I just wish these companies would offer 26" barrels  for the standard calibers...Of course if they did...they wouldn't be selling many magnum cartridges...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2007, 04:54:33 AM »
Here's a look at the prices of ATRs and 4x4s...

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?action=1037&page=1&brand=MBCR
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline bluebayou

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2007, 05:40:39 AM »
Well better the Mossberg than the Remington 710.  Can I get an Amen?

We have the 710 on clearance to $250 at work.  I still try to steer people away from it.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2007, 04:35:36 AM »
I spent most of this past summer playing around with a superlight youth handi .243 I got for the wife who insists on the lightest carrying and lightest kicking rifle---try to explain to her that the two don't really go together. That has been very frustrating. I finally found a load that will hold under 3 MOA  and that is by far the best I've gotten from it.  I also worked a bit with an old H&R Shikari in 45/70 and a 30/30, more frustrations.  In final preparation for deer season I pulled out my old Winchester M-70 featherweight in 6.5X55 and what a pleasure just to handle a real rifle for a change! A totally solid feel, a great trigger, a stock which places my eye right behind the scope and five shots in an inch and a quarter, two inches high, just where I zeroed it last year! Handi rifles are, well, handy, but they just don't compare to a "real rifle" and that's a fact.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.