contender/FFL shipping question

[celisup78]

I am in the process of buying a contender from a guy in Wy and I am in Pa. Is he required by federal law to ship it from an FFL in Wy to my local FFL dealer in Pa or can he ship it himself to my FFL? All of the FFL dealers I have called - both in Pa and Md say that he must ship the contender via his FFL dealer to my FFL dealer. The guy I am buying the contender off of says otherwise, that he can ship it himself if he gives the ups driver a copy of my local FFL dealer's info. I have always dealt through FFL dealers both ways. I am assuming that the FFL dealers are correct, but I am looking for some first hand experience to back them up or at least a place on the internet with info - I couldnt find anything specifically about this on the ATF site. Thanks for the help.

[Graybeard]

I think being technically legal about it he "could" ship if he had a copy of your guy's FFL but any FFL dealer who would hand out copies of his FFL like that to an individual in my opinion is STUPID in the extreme and not many will do it. Mine won't and I'd never ask him to. Dealers are NOT supposed to provide copies of their FFL to anyone but other FFL dealers.

The proper way to handle out of state transfers is FFL to FFL. If he is unwilling to do that then he would be in violation of GBO rules and if he is selling here I'd like to know who so I can bar him from selling at GBO.

[celisup78]

Thanks for the info graybeard. Yeah, no FFL dealer I know would send it out either to a private individual and I dont blame them. The guy wasn't selling on here - it was on an auction site. I am waiting for his email response and hopefully he is willing to ship via his FFL dealer - I was looking forward to a new addition to my contender family.

[ourway77]

I don't know what you are paying, But I feel you are better off buying from a dealer who inturn will ship to your FFL, No Hassle. Most sellers do not want to go through a dealer because of the cost factor. I bought several thru various sights, and I make it very clear my FFL will only send his license to another FFL, and if they can't accept that then look further, no matter how good a deal. And if it's that good a deal better be leary. All that Glitters is not Gold. One other thing if you are going to use it as a pistol, be sure it came from Thompson as a pistol.Most Contenders do come as pistols but it never hurts to check. It is illegal to put a pistol barrel on a rifle frame, Sad state of affairs Lou

[sweetwyominghome]

Unless your state rules are different than federal law, compliance only requires that the firearms sold outside of the owner's state of residence pass through one (the receiving) FFL. That is what the BATFE requires, pure and simple.

If sold through this site, then the administrator does specify shipping  FFL to FFL.

As to dealers not wanting anyone to have a copy of their FFL, that must be a regional thing. Why the big deal? Their license #s, names and addresses are available to anyone with a computer. In my area, dealers are quick to copy their FFL to anyone needing one. I have never, ever heard of any problems from this practice.

Some dealers, unfortunately, do not understand the law -- and that goes for shippers (UPS, USPS) as well who do not even know their own regulations.

However, I must point out that you, as an individual,  do not need a copy of the receiving FFL's license to legally ship. You can verify their validity through the ATF site or through links leading there from gunbroker.com, etc.

[steveus]

The comment directly above is exactly right, plain and simple. 

[jamie]

I leave the shipping up to someone who knows better than me, but i can tell you that here in South Dakota ALL of the FFL dealer's will give you a signed copy of their license upon asking.  No hassle, no questions, in and out in less than 5 minutes.  There is no big deal to it.

[sweetwyominghome]

Jamie-I've made my fair share of deals, both buying and selling, in areas that span most of the country. And I have yet to  encounter any dealer unwilling to provide a copy of an FFL.

I have run into ignorance, such as a postmaster in Georgia refusing to ship a package of component bullets I purchased because they were "explosive," despite the sender's explanations and pleading.  Several years ago, I had a clerk and supervisor in Austin, TX both tell me that I could not use UPS to ship a rifle UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. But when I made him pull up the regulations and read the appropriate passage outloud, he changed his tune and said HIS supervisor told him so. (I then suggested he educate his own supervisor.)  And I have had one dealer, early on in the internet game, tell me he couldn't accept guns from out of state, but I quickly fixed that as well.

But the license thing doesn't make sense.

Come to think of it, I frequent a number of other hunting/shooting sites, and this is the only site I have ever seen it mentioned. That's why I have to believe it's simply regional thing.

[sweetwyominghome]

One more thing I wanted to address: No one has ever been prosecuted for having a rifle frame set up as a pistol AS LONG AS IT HAS BEEN  PROPERLY STOCKED. For starters, no one can immediately check as to the history of the frame. And even if it was registered as a rifle but changed hands several times, the information trail would be difficult to follow and would certainly complicate any prosecutor's case.

Secondly, TC won its court battle regarding the kits they were selling.

So it is simple. Stock it legally and don't worry about a thing.

Thanks to the internet and the proliferation of bad information, now when anyone lists a frame, you are certain to see at least one poster ask if it was originally registered as a rifle or pistol.

[Graybeard]

The court case TC won had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with making a handgun from a frame sold as a rifle. It merely established that it was legal for TC to sell rifle barrels, stocks and rifle fore ends for the Contender handguns already out there. That is the ONLY thing it covered. To the best of my knowledge no case law exists regarding the use of a frame orginally sold as a rifle being later used as a handgun.

Technically it would be illegal. Would anyone ever find out? Doubtful. But the law is on the books even tho I consider it in violation of the Constitution (judges don't however) that you cannot turn a rifle into handgun.

BTW the reason for site policy on FFL to FFL on firearms is that I KNOW FOR A FACT folks have shipped interstate person to person with no FFL on either end involved. When such comes to my attention I am duty bound to pass the info along to federal authorities. Were I not to then I might get my butt in a sling with BATFE and believe me you do not want those folks on your case.

[Ladobe]

I am in the process of buying a contender from a guy in Wy and I am in Pa. Is he required by federal law to ship it from an FFL in Wy to my local FFL dealer in Pa or can he ship it himself to my FFL? All of the FFL dealers I have called - both in Pa and Md say that he must ship the contender via his FFL dealer to my FFL dealer. The guy I am buying the contender off of says otherwise, that he can ship it himself if he gives the ups driver a copy of my local FFL dealer's info. I have always dealt through FFL dealers both ways. I am assuming that the FFL dealers are correct, but I am looking for some first hand experience to back them up or at least a place on the internet with info - I couldnt find anything specifically about this on the ATF site. Thanks for the help.

As already pointed out, if the deal was made via GBO (either through ads or even just PM's), please follow board policy and transfer FFL to FFL.   That said...

This has been hashed over a thousand times on the Internet.   And it's pretty scary what some of these arm chair lawyers come up with.   Bottom line is what it states on the BATF site, and I strongly suggest anyone considering long distance buying/selling of "modern" firearms read and understand those regs fully.   It won't be me or my opinion the man with the star will come after, it'll be you.   

Here's the guidelines I follow for long distance transfers (and trust me, a semi auto pistol to Moscow before the end of the Cold War was long distance and with lots of "red" tape).   For a transfer across state lines, if there are not any local (city, county, state) laws to the contrary, either where the seller or buyer lives, then the seller could ship a "long" gun direct to the buyers FFL.   By "long" I mean rifle or shotgun.   Pistols going across state lines must be shipped FFL to FFL - no exceptions.   And since most TC frames were originally sold as pistols, that includes them.   Few TC frame sellers, unless the original owner, know how the frame they are selling was first listed.   So to be absolutely sure, I do all TC frames FFL to FFL as if pistols and also register them as such (one of those "local" requirements).   Keep in mind also that some localities don't allow certain types of firearms, period (handguns, Class III, etc).   And when transferring within your own state of residence, by shipping or even face to face to another resident, make certain of what your state/local laws are.   There may be local requirements.   

To me it's well worth paying a dealer's fee to do all my transfers in or out, even with long guns and even within state if they have to be shipped.   Takes all the legal burden off my shoulders, and that's cheap peace of mind.    (Shop around to keep it "cheap" though.   Some FFL's are real proud of their hand writting I guess as they charge ridiculous transfer fees.)   

It's been my experience that few FFL dealers will send a copy of their license to anyone except another FFL dealer now days.   Didn't use to be that way and kind of a joke really as it is public knowledge.    But it is a simple matter to check on any FFL dealer to make sure he is legit.   So there is really no need for a copy of his license for your own personal records.    Demand a receipt when shipping, a bill of sale when buying, keep detailed records on the transaction and you'll be fine.   

The carriers each have their own set of regs on shipping, but they haven't bothered to teach them to their own agents very well.   Rather than trying to write all the ins and outs of all of the carriers, I suggest you peruse their web sites yourself so you know what they will and will not do and exactly what they require.  Not all of them will ship all types of firearms.   At least you'll be prepared to teach what you've learned to the agent, or more likely their supervisor/manager when you go in to ship. 

No arm chair lawyer here.   Just a guy who has transferred a lot of firearms over the years, made every effort to do so legally and still has his freedom.

But don't get lazy and just trust opinions.   It's your personal freedom and finances at stake.   Every day firearms/ammo are shipped illegally in this country, and all too often by sellers who know they are breaking the law.   They'd get what they deserve, but I'm not sure in a court of law that receiving an illegal firearm transfer, even though I didn't know it was shipped illegal, will still guaranty my freedom.   It's just not worth taking the chance, making the easy answer going FFL to FFL.

L.

[Keith L]

I sent a frame back to  a few years ago and no ups drop off site would accept it.  I had my dealer ship it for me and he told me that ups required overnite air.  When TC shipped it back it came to my house.  Go figure.

[sweetwyominghome]

Keith-

UPS drop-off stations can't accept firearms. You have to go to an actual UPS counter. As to your frame coming back to you from TC, that is the way it is supposed to be as it is yours and there is no transfer of ownership and only repair work performed.

[Ladobe]

Only item I ever had to "send" back to TC was my brand new "last issue" original Contender frame (the model with the replaceable breech block) that had not been spot welded when made by TC.   I let it collect dust for 16 months before giving the stripped frame to Tim P. at the 2K SHOT Show.   He did get his tail feathers singed for their letting a new frame ship that was incomplete and dangerous, but only mildly so as we had been friends for a very long time.   He hand carried it back to the plant.   3+ months later he sent it back to me direct repaired and complete with all new internals.   Only problem I've ever had with a TC of any kind due to a factory mistake in 38 years of shooting them, and that includes their muzzle loaders.   Good products, but the turn-around time once in hand was poor this time.

[sweetwyominghome]

Graybeard wrote: "I consider it in violation of the Constitution (judges don't however) that you cannot turn a rifle into handgun."

I agree. It should be a simple matter.

But, you actually can do so -- though it is somewhat complicated process. This came to light many years ago with an outdoor writer who converted his rolling block into a pistol. His articles were widely published, and he did get a call from the Feds who explained to him the legal repercussions of his actions. But because it was an honest mistake (and a gray area, legally speaking, to boot), they did guide him through the process of getting the pistol onto the books as a "new" firearm -- and thus perfectly legal again.

[Hawk-in-Wi]

a private person may ship a handgun across state lines to a FFL
read this , from ATF web site

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

(B10) May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods? [Back]

Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]