.357 and Steel Rams

[WyrTwister]

     Forgive me if this is an imposable question to answer .  I do not know if the steel rams set at 200 meters on a silhouette range are a standard size and weight ?

     What I would like to know is , does off the shelf 148 - 158 grain SWC .357 Mag ammo have enough power to knock down the 200 meter ram ?  16" barrel  lever gun  ?  20" ?

Thanks ,
God bless
Wyr

[mrbill2]

"No" Go to any local match and see what shooters are using. I don't think you will find any that are shooting the 357 for rams at 200 yds.

[ihmsa70]

you need at least a 180 with stout load of Lil-Gun or 296.  200 gr. would be better if you can find one that will feed through your mag. 

[WyrTwister]

you need at least a 180 with stout load of Lil-Gun or 296.  200 gr. would be better if you can find one that will feed through your mag. 

      May stick with .44 & .45 caliber .

     Was thinking of .357 for lower recoil .  And a tad cheaper to shoot .

     And an excuse to buy a .357 Marlin while they are still on sale .   :-)

Thanks ,
Wyr

God bless

[454Puma]

mrbill2
 So how much FPE does it take to knock the 200 yd ram over? I would think a 180-200gr 357 mag would work as Speer markets there 180- 200gr for 357 as silhouette bullets!!

[mrbill2]

I do not know what FPS it would take. A lot depends on the weight of the ram and how it is set. If it is set full foot it will take more energy to knock it down as opposed to having them set at the topple point. Can you knock a ram down with the 357, sometimes. Can you do it every time you hit one,no.
Like I posted earlier. Go to a silhouette match and see what is being used. If the 357 could be counted on to knock the rams down every time, Speer would sell alot more of those bullets and the firing line would have shooters with 357's. I don't care what Speer calls their bullet, the 357 is not a good choise for silhuoetts at 200 yds. I have seen rams hit with a 45-70 and 38-55 that didn't go down. You would think they were welded in place. Do you shoot silhouettes, and what do you use for lever action at 200 yards ?

[Mikey]

I used a couple of S&W Model 19s (4" bbls) for metallic silhouette for a number of years.  The two favorite loads were both with 200 gn slugs (just about any you could find at the time) and either 12.2 of IMR 4227 for a nice
1K'/sec mid-range load or 12.4 of WW 296 for 1335'/sec (factory specs).  Most 200 gn slugs at the time were either the old RN slug or those cast for different 35 caliber rifles (gas checked and round nosed); I liked the round nose flat point slug the best.  When the 200 gn swc slugs came out for bowling pin shooters that turned out to be the best of all, especially if your revovler shoots them accurately. 

I dont' put any faith in the 180 gn factory loads, not when I can handload better with a heavier slug.  And I firmly believe that if I can knock a steeel ram over at 200 yds with a 200 gn slug from a 4" bbl the same slug with the same loading should be able to to the same from a 16 or 20" bbl.  With the 357 you have to hit the steel silhouette at the top center to get it to topple with anything less than the 200 gn slug from a revolver, as I recall.  HTH.  Mikey.

[mrbill2]

Well Mikey, that's got to be one super duper revolver. My Speer manual lists 14.7 grs. of 296 with a 158 gr. bullet to have a mzl.vel at1185. Your load has 2.3 grs. less powder and 42 grs. more bullet weight and has  mzl. vel. of 1335 fps.  And Speer used a SW Model 19 with a 6" barrel to test the load. Sounds like pie in the sky to me.
Speer doe's have load data using a Contender 10" barrel and 200 gr. bullet. With 14.0 grs. of 296 they lists a mzl. vel. of 1370.

[Mikey]

The S&W Model 19 is a good revolver.  Neither the IMR 4227 or the WW296 loadings are high pressure and the revolvers shot them both without problem. 

Winchester lists the 200 gn slug with 12.4 of 296 powder and up to 14.5 gns with the 158 gn LSWC for 1560'/sec.  Winchester does not list a 14.7 gn WW296 powder charge with the 158 gn slug. 

If Speer doesn't have load data using a 10" Contender barrel and the 200 gn slug then how do they, or you, come up with 14 gns of 296 and a velocity of 1370'/sec?  Also, you will not find winchester advocating a lower powder charge that what they call for in their manuals. 

All I gave you was the Winchester listed powder charge and the Winchester stated velocity and the known fact that that load topples the ram at 200 yds.  Sounds like pie in the sky to you?  You should try to see if you can hit with open sights at 200 yds, with a 4" barrel, then you can have your cake and eat it too.  Mikey.

[Mikey]

Please note this clarification:  Winchester listed the 200 gn slug with 12.4 of 296 powder at a velocity of 1335'/sec and 14.5 gns of 296 with the 158 gn LSWC for 1560'/sec.  Winchester does not list a 14.7 gn WW296 powder charge with the 158 gn slug. Mikey.

[mrbill2]

Mikey
We can argue weather or not your load will take down the rams at 200 yds. forever.
What I have a problem with is 12.4 grs. of WW296 behind a 200 gr. bullet having a velocity of 1335 fps. (shot from a revolver with a 4" barrel). But if Winchester says it's so then it must be true and I'll leave it at that...
I still would not recommend a 357 mag. to anyone thinking of shooting silhouettes at 200 yds.  I don't see it being done at any of the 5 different places I shoot.
Mr. Bill

[Mikey]

Mr. Bill - I never said the 200 gn slug over 12.4 of WW296 actually gets 1335'/sec from a 4" bbl revolver - probably does not but that is the factory listing;  and I know it doesn't get that from my 4" revolver but it topples the ram with square on hits.  In fact, both the IMR loads and the WW296 loads will accomplish that. 

I'll tellya that it is a hoot to shoot the 357 revolver at the steel silhouettes at the longer ranges.  You can almost make a 1-2 count before they hit but if you have your sights set - we would raise them up about 3-4 clicks for every additional 50 yds distance - you can knock them over.  Sure, you have raised your rear sight 12-16 clicks for the 200 yd ram but it will take them cleanly and has with 4" barrelled revolvers.  I'll bet it gets even better with a rifle or carbine. 

And, as this is a lever action rifle forum I am willing to bet Wyr Twister may be using a 16-20" barrelled rifle for his silhouette shooting and if the 200 gn slugs shoot accurately in his rifle he should be 'havin' fun'.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[gypsyman]

Back in the early '90's, because of a break in at my house, my usual silhouette pistol, 10''-.44-DW was stolen. All I had at the time for revolver class, was a 10''-.357-DW. Which incidentally had a 1-14 twist. I cast a 210gr LBT bullet and put 12.5grs. of 296 over a Fed.200 primer. In the following years I shot myself into International class with that pistol and load.(never shot a 40, but plenty of 38's and 39's) With the weight of the bullet there was enough energy down at 200m to knock over rams.(These by the way, are full size rams, weight around 55lbs.) Not sure, but I do belive you'll lose to much energy with that light of a bullet.(158gr.) If you can, get either 180's or 200gr bullets, for better retention of energy.(200gr prefered) With the extra barrel lenght, you shouldn't have a problem-gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

alot of people shot 357 mag in a hand gun , but it was not standard loads for a reg. gun ! most were strong guns and loads were over max. for any other guns ! alot were 357 max. also know as 357 super mag. !
I don't think a winchester will take those over loads not sure about a marlin . the ram we used was 56 lbs. in winter we set it half off the stand or even a 44 mag. would have trouble knocking it off ( foot would freeze to stand plate ) we took to shooting high over back leg to get ram to pivot and fall as a knock over was not a sure thing in cold weather !

[w30wcf]

There are IHMSA rams and then there are rams!  Both are the same but the difference is in how they are set.

Around 1980,  IHMSA required that the back feet be offset for easier knockdown. On those ranges a 180 gr. .357 does pretty darn well.

By comparison, many clubs shooting NRA Cowboy Silhouette "full foot" the rams making them definitely harder to get them to topple over.

As mrbill2 indicated, my experience with the .357 is "iffy" on full footed rams.  I shoot at one of the clubs he shoots at (McKean County Rifle Club) and their rams are "full footed".  About 60% knockdown with a 192 gr. cast bullet @ 1,600 f.p.s. is what I have exprienced on their rams.
I currently use the .30-30 which works well.

Have fuunnn!
w30wcf