Encore barrel/frame lateral play

[Marc5000]

Hello,

A few months ago I got a stainless Encore, laminated stock, 26" heavy barrel, .204 Ruger. Then I got an additional barrel: .223 Rem, 26", stainless. I haven't shot the .204 barrel much, but have been trying to find an accurate load for the .223 barrel. So far the gun has shot OK. Not great but OK, like 1 1/2" groups (at 100 yards, with reloads) with an occasional flier opening it up to 2 or 2 1/2". I haven't done any mods to the rifle.

I noticed my gun has some lateral play. If I hold the frame firmly and then push the muzzle end of the barrel from left to right, or right to left, it moves a tiny bit. I can't see it moving, but I sure can feel it, and even hear a faint clunking sound. Both barrel do the same thing. If I try to move the barrel up and down, it won't move at all, it's tight and firm, feels like a single solid piece.

I'm a little paranoid about this lateral play. But I wonder if that is normal. After all it's a break-open design, and frame, barrel and hinge pin, they all must have their tolerances so some play will always be there, maybe varying from gun to gun depending on how the tolerances stack up. I went to a local gun store the other day and handled four different Encore rifles and one Contender carbine. Only one of the Encores felt real snug, with no perceptible play. The other Encores and the Contender all had some play.

I'd like to hear the opinions from people more experienced on the Encores. Is that lateral play normal? Is it reasonable to believe that barrel/frame lateral play is detrimental to accuracy, and guns with a real tight fit should shoot better?


Thanks,
Marc

[Chris Potts]

I noticed this on a new barrel that I purchased not to long ago.  I went back a checked my other two barrels.  Both of them had some play.  They all shoot good, but I was surprised that this would not destroy the accuracy.

Chris Potts

[sweetwyominghome]

Accuracy is all about harmonics and dynamics, and when there is lateral play or looseness of any kind, the potential for consistency in accuracy is significantly reduced.

This site censors the name of the person who offers oversized hinge pins, but it certainly sounds like one is in order. The diiference is often dramatic. Some "experts" despise the oversized pins, and other "experts" have purchased the wrong size and literally beat their gun to death to insert it.

You have to use common sense and know what you are doing. If you do, expect a welcome transformation in the accuracy department. Those who don't simply bad-mouth it -- many without so much as one iota of actual experience with them.

A perfect example is a 24" 6.5x55 factory barrel I purchased when they first became available.  It shot decently but not great, and it was finicky about the loads it liked. Then, too, I could sight-in 2 inches high at 100 and the next day be 2" low and an inch or two left at the same range.  But the addition of a 1x hinge pin from Mike Bellm and getting rid of the awful factory synthetic forend turned that barrel into the proverbial tackdriver. And the point of impact no longer shifted. The hinge pin gets the majority of the credit as the groups tightened BEFORE I swapped out for a custom forend.

Another improvement was that groups which once displayed so-so accuracy and were discarded during load development became quite acceptable -- some exceptionally so.

The majority of my Contender and Encore setups utilize a 1x pin. There are a couple of combos that do perfecly well with the factory pin, but all of the others showed significant improvement. A 7mm Bullberry with a factory pin gave me beautiful 5/8th to 3/4" 100 yard groups with monotonous regularity. And the point of impact  NEVER, EVER shifted. Most folks would have been thrilled to death with that type of performance, but I wasn't convinced it couldn't do better. And when I put in a 1x pin, the 5-shot, 100 yard groups suddenly became 3/8th to  1/2". So why settle for excellent when superb is a distinct possibility???

Granted, if you have a standard TC barrel that locks up relatively tightly and gives you sub-MOA accuracy on a regular basis, a pin probably isn't going to make much of a difference as  there's not that much more potential to unlock. But with a well-made custom tube, the results may be astounding.

To find out more about these pins, go to www.bell_tcs.com (replacing the "_" with an "m"

[swampthing]

I would forget about the "oversize hinge pins." The "locking hinge pins" look like a much better idea.
     I have 2 Encores and a G2, I brought all of them to T/C for the same problem. On all of them they installed a larger/thicker "firing pin bushing." {Thats that piece of metal that houses the firing pin/pins} This eliminated all of that movement, I suppose by taking up the barrel to breach gap.

[herb40]

   
   I also bought the oversize pin, could not put up with the lateral movement. The oversize pin improved groups and took out the movement.

[Marc5000]

Swampthing,

What is the difference between "oversized hinge pin" and "locking hinge pin"?


Thanks,
Marc

[KN]

I don't believe these pins will solve your problem. They may help but I doubt they will cure it. I also have one that started out exactly the way you described. It started out shooting around 1-1/2". This was in 22/250. What I did was take a precision vise, and a small screw jack, (I am a tool maker by trade so all this is available to me). I protected the finish of the frame with rags, put the front of the frame opening in the vise, inserted the jack inside the frame to keep from over "squeezing it. And began to slowly and incrementally tighten up the frame opening until I had removed all the side to side play from the frame/barrel. It didn't take very long and the results are terrific. The gun now shoots 1/2" consistently and is a major part of my prairie dog battery.   KN

[Chris Potts]

Squeezing the frame seems to me to be a far more likely way to solve the problem.  I could be mistaken but it seems that the lateral play is because the "lug" on the bottom of the barrel is narrower than the opening in the frames which allows it to wobble side to side.  A larger diameter pin would not reduce the width of opening in the frame.  I know that some people have great success with larger pins, but unless the pin was so tight that it would not move at all (which would make it very to insert), it doesn't seem that it would solve this problem.  That said I am very happy with accuracy of all three of my barrels, and they all seem to have some lateral movement.  So I guess that I am not sure that it is a problem.

Chris Potts

[Keith L]

Like so many things it is a problem if the shooter decides it is a problem.  From that time on until a "fix" is found then it will be a problem. 

If you choose to squeeze the frame you run the risk of having other barrels that won't fit.  Go slowly and be careful.

[KN]

It's not the lug width that's the problem, its the width at the top where the barrel diameter "nests" into the frame. And chris is right, if you attempt this proceed very slowly. I only use this rifle with this barrel but I cant imagine having too much trouble with other barrels. It is a snug fit when assembling though.   KN

[kmac]

<insert picture of me scratching my head>

I can't see why the lateral movement of the frame/stock should be a problem.  (mine does it)

The sights (and/or scope) are mounted on the barrel, and do not move.  As long as you have sight picture and proper trigger squeeze you're going to hit what you're aiming at, right? 

[KN]

Any kind of "play" can wreak havoc on accuracy. It allows the gun to do all sorts of moving around during recoil. Consistency is the key to shooting good groups no mater what you are shooting. And with unnecessary play you loose consistency.   KN

[flinthead]

accuracy is in the barrel, this "over sized pin" deal is a answer waiting on a problem... I've not had great luck with factory TC barrel but bought an MGM barrel in 7 mag for my Encore and it's a half inch shooter... it's like do you have a factory 351 or one built by Mr. Shelby?

[BobT]

I would not "squeeze" the frame, TC frames are investment cast and might crack. To get rid of the lateral movement you could shim the sides of the barrel lug, if the lug is a tight fit then you could go to an oversize hinge pin. I don't think I would use the locking type because they look to me like a sliding wedge type of arrangement that would put un-even stress on the frame doing nothing good for accuracy. If hinge pin movement concerns you then you can simply use a piece of tape across the front of the frame over the ends of the hinge pin. Accuracy is a relative thing, what makes some people happy may be considered by others to be unacceptable. Decide on what makes you happy then you will have a goal to reach. I have seen very positive results from over size hinge pins my self but they must fit both the frame and barrel. I have gone as far as grinding a tool steel pin and honeing the frame and barrel lug holes to a .0002 press fit oh a Sunnen hone. Did it work, in a word yes but it is not something I would recommend as the pin has to be pressed in and out and it takes a firm tug to open the barrel. I was searching for the "Holy Grail" what I ended up with is a muzzleloader that will shoot 2" 200 yard groups with boring regulairity and occasionally slip one in at around an inch.
Just my thoughts!
Bob

I almost forgot, make sure you have clearance between the forend ears and the frame sides, they can rub sometimes and this won't help accuracy either.

[Marc5000]

An update:

I decided not to go for an oversize pin for the original hinge pin on my Encore is pretty tight. Anything larger in diameter would have to be pressed in, and I don't wanna go there. What I did was I "floated" the forend. Also, as suggested, I checked the clearance between the forend ears and the frame. No problems there, they are not touching. Well, I didn't notice any difference in accuracy after floating the forend. The level of accuracy I was hoping to achieve is 1 MOA or better. I'm not expecting sub-MOA each and every time, but every once in a while would be nice. With this rifle I have not been able to shoot a single sub-MOA group, not even once. I tried 45, 50, 52 and 55 gr bullets, and a variety of powder charges. The gun is pretty consistent actually, but consistent at producing 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 100 yards with 50 gr bullets, which it seems to like best. Note: I do get groups smaller than 1" with both of my two bolt action rifles, not everyday, but often enough to make me happy.

I will definitely not try to squeeze the frame. I don't have the tools and/or skills to do it. I'm sure I would damage it if I tried. But thinking about the concept, I did a little testing. I removed the barrel and put some tape (regular clear tape) on both sides of the frame, on the inside where the barrel goes. Then I re-installed the barrel. Despite the tape I could open and close the barrel normally. The tape stayed put, opening/closing the barrel did not cut it or scraped it off. And the annoying play was gone!! I could not feel any play anymore. Looks like there is too much gap between frame and barrel and that's what is causing the play.

I haven't shot the rifle with the tape on the frame yet. I'm curious to see if it will make a difference.

Note: I went to Ganfer Mtn the other day and they had a bunch of Encores on the rack: 3 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 7 or 8 muzzleloaders (of which 3 were Pro Hunter models). They had 2 Conternder rifles too. I handled them all and looked for play. None of the Encores with muzzleloader barrels had any perceptible play. The 2 shotguns had very little play. Only one of the rifles was tight with no play. 2 of the Encore rifles and both Contender rifles had a lot of play, more than my rfile has.

[Coltdriver]

I got a roll of the metal Furnace Duct tape.  A 1/2 inch square goes over each end of the pin each time I mount a barrel.  This at least prevents the pin from shifting.

My Encore .204 barrel is a serious tack driver.  And there is no movement of any kind with my 45 70 barrel mounted.

I have a stainless frame and barrel but I don't imagine that it matters.

[locosmith]

Here it is again, all kinds of stories. I just reworked a TC 300 mag out of the box. First for consistency one would think all should be tight, if the barrel shifts around thats a problem. But most don't realize that its loose, when you put the wood on it doesn't move. You can't free float if it touches on the sides of the receiver. The pins are great but you have to ream the item thats tigh, if its the barrel thats loose, you'll have to open the frame and install a new pin. All barrels will need fitted to this frame. They don't wear, once installed they are great, but you fit them slowly. They work and so does floating the wood and lapping the  scope. Loco