Buffalo Classic field performance question

[Dixie Dude]

As much as I like my 45-70, I personally would get rid of it before the .35 Whelen.  The .35 is more versatile and "practical".  I do love the looks, feel, and quick handling lever action of my .45-70 though.  My .35 is a Mauser action, light kicker.  I've found I can reload .357 bullets for light action all the way up to 310 grain.  It has a ton of energy at 300 yards with the right loads, zeroed at 200 yards only about a 7" drop at 300, 3" high at 100.  Amazing for a 30-06 case.  With the right loads the 45-70 can be accurate to 200 yards, 2-3" high at 100, 2-3" low at 200.  Don't know what the energy is at 200 with the 45-70.  Haven't studied it as much.   

[Scibaer]

i dont doubt you. for you the whelen likely does work better, and i'll prolly regret getting rid of it too. but i dont reload, and the remington ammo is all i can get for it relatively easily. i had a no fire issue ( NEF fixed it wonderfully ) it shoot flawlessly now, but the issue has colored my interest for the gun. im sure in other guns the 35whelen is just fine.
 but with this bug i have for the 45-70, its something i cant pass on.  the 45-70 has been around a long time, and i think it must be a great chambering or it would not have the following it does, taking away nothing from the whelen. and if it is less gun, stats, preformance or ballistics wise, im ok with that, i dont sqeeze off a round on game more then 150 yards anyhow, not here in michigan bottom lands anyhow.  if i dont like the BC, my local gun dealer has 3 whelens on the shelf,lol..

[Fred M]

Scibaer
Don't know much about factory ammo for the 38-55. I have a 375 Win almost the same as the 38-55. There is only one factory  available and it is great in
my rifle. Have not been able to duplicate the the accuracy of the factory load, but I am getting close with 225gr Hornady SP.

I am taking it out again for a tree stand hunt with factory ammo.

My 257Roberts custom Handi did a great job yesterday bagging a WT-doe at 120 yards, one shot below the chin with a 100gr Speer Hot Core. Spoiled
very little meat at the top of the neck roast.

This rifle only weighs 7lbs-5oz complete with a 3-9 Sightron scope. It has no recoil pad and the stock is  not filled with lead, it has a 24" octagon barrel
and shoots 3 shots into a 1/2" and handles like lightning and is so easy
to carry. My idea of a deer rifle.

[Scibaer]

That was a nice wt you took. i dont hear much about the roberts, but when i do its usually from handloaders and they tout its praises highly.
i hear next to nill about the 38-55 and i bet there are few who hunt with it.. at this point im just looking over options if i choose not to keep the whelen.
i dont reload, i'd like to , given the time to learn, the money to buy equipment and the space to setup.

you mentioned weight in the stock upsetting the dynamics of the gun in an earlier post. could you explain that more ?
 i read some that the longer BC barrel offer more weight,acting aginst the recoil, a longer sight plane for better aiming.. does adding weight to the stock counter act that effect ? the recoil in the whelen is next to nothing ( for me ) does the BC recoil that much more ?

[quickdtoo]

BC recoil depends on the load, the steel butt plate isn't real friendly with loads much over trapdoor levels, but you can always add a nice looking leather slip-on recoil pad if the recoil is a problem, info is in the FAQs.

The 38-55 Target's shorter barrel is a little more friendly as far as balance as a carry rifle tho. The biggest problem with the 38-55 is it doesn't shoot jacketed bullets well, at least the older barrels didn't, oversize cast bullets can be made to shoot good, but with some work, usually after having the neck reamed to allow the chambering of bullets that are big enough to be accurate. Handirifle's is the first that I've read of that would chamber .379"-.380" bullets without problems, so maybe since Marlin is now making the barrels, that's no longer an issue. There's a good article in the FAQs on loading for the 38-55 if you want to read up on it. Maybe Handirifle will post some info on his.

Tim

[Fred M]

Scibear.
Quote
you mentioned weight in the stock upsetting the dynamics of the gun in an earlier post. could you explain that more ?

A long arm is considered dynamic when the center of gravity is in between
the hands, this of course is more important in shotgun than in rifle.
Nevertheless when you stuff the butt of a rifle with lead you make the forward part whippy and difficult to aim and with a running shot the barrel will be  will be more difficult to control.

The same is true when a rifle is front heavy with a 32" barrel, these barrels were designed to be used with x-sticks and are very difficult to use any other way. The weight distribution again is wrong for off hand shooting. Resting the rifle on the barrel  will change the point of impact so will shooting sticks.

Besides these off ballanced rifles are very awkward to carry. I my view a good
recoil pad is the only acceptable way to soften the recoil besides lighter loads.
There is some merit in using the mercury tubes, but again they change the handling qualities of the rifle. Why fight the odds use a smaller caliber for smaller game and learn how to shoot accurately.

I had no trouble making one shot kills on the big African antelopes using a
7mm-08AI some  bigger than our elks. Bullet placement is the key.

[Scibaer]

well its sounds like the 38-55 isnt for me then. i really am not setup for messing with all that. i dont reload at this time. the recoil of the 45-70 porbably wont be an issue for me, i do have to educate myself on the different levels however and the nomenclature. the steel butt pad isnt an issue, i plan to use a handi butt stock, the monte carlo style with a butt pad.
glenn

[Scibaer]

ok Fred if i am reading you right. some sort of recoil reducer may help felt recoil, but it should not weigh enough to upset the balance of the rifle. the balance should be measured by figuring the center of the distance between the hand holds, i.e. the grip area of the buttstock and the grip area of the forend. measuring that balance should be done when the rifle is in shooting or hunting trim, scope mounted to gun. see enclosed pic..
so, adding any weigh into the stock should not upset this balance, fore or aft. too much weight and the barrel will be whippy. to little and no gain in recoil reduction, in this specific scenario.

see enclosed pic, did i miss anything ?
glenn

[Chilachuck]

Fred, sounds like the long barrels need a bit of weight added to the butt to balance the barrel?

(Wheel barrow to carry the gun being optional. Or would it be better to just add a couple wheels straight to the gun?)

[bearbeater]

Hey
My BC shoots very well 1.5 moa with my bad eye using 405 lazer cast pushed with 30 gr of 4198 and burns clean very clean no leading problems. I have all the confidance that this load and slug will down any WT deer. as for the ballance I agree with Fred that cross sticks work well and ballance is then good. My entire life I have used former military arms for hunting till now. My eyes changed and a few operations later on my shooting eye helped change my mind. I dont mind a front heavy rifle I just lead the stock and use a stance that suports the front of the stoch and this works well for me. hope this helps for you. The BC is one of the best shooting handis I have and I do use it on WT's if I go to the rifle zone in Mi.

[handirifle]

Try this,
Keep the Whelen, load it with a cast bullet of 250gr or higher, with a round or flat nose design, load it's velocity down to the 2000fps mark, and try that.  My guess is it will drop those whitetail like a ton of bricks.  One of the 45-70's main assets is the blunt nose HEAVY bullet, that goes through anything it encounters.

I think a 250 or 275gr, flat nose, cast bullet from the 35 will be the same.  BUT, I'm not sure if there are molds out there for said bullet.

[Scibaer]

well i dunno about needing wheels, but some basic tests may be in order here. weigh and compair the 45-70 in a handi and BC.. weight a few barrels to get the weight of them, find thier balance points. overall weight of the guns in question. test the actual balance point of the BC, just for starters.
 it does sound as the BC could use some weight in the stock. i can think of several ways to get the weight where its needed too, how much would depend on the tests mentioned above though..
i like the sounds of the shoot stance adjustment alot better then the X-sticks too.
i too have always used military guns to hunt with till a few years back. i was given a H&R and instantly liked it. i didnt know anything about them, found this site and that was it, i was hooked, sold all my military guns,and my FAL and AKM were the last to go this year. now i own all NEF's and what more of em, lol ..
glenn

[quickdtoo]

Glenn, a good option for recoil reduction and weight balance for the long barrel would be to use a mercury recoil suppressor with a short length of dowel or PVC pipe ahead of it in the stock bolt hole to fill the cavity, the MRS is available is three 7/8" diameter lengths and weights. Mounted to the rear, it would take less weight to help balance it.

Tim

http://www.mpcsports.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=245

[Scibaer]

Tim, thanks for the link. i looked over the products and did a quick research on them. i think that i dont want a mercury filled absorber. its nasty stuff and if the recoil caused it too leak ( i did not find any reports that said one ever has ) it make a mess very tough to clean up. the style that has a weight, spring on both ends captured by a tube makes more sense to me. it got my to thinking ( spooky proposition in its self ) that i could taylor make on, very easily, to the exact weight i needed. by using copper tube, lead shot and a dowel rod. after figuring total weight needed. im still working out how to keep the lead shot fluid. i used another rifle for the mock-up on the barrel shim, rubber o-ring a metal washer to free float the barrel. i  trap the rubber o-ring between the barrel stud and the washer, which the forearm sits against, free floats the whole forearm and tightens down nicely, in fact im making a few more for all my handi's.
 i have to figure the difference in weight between a straight stock and the monte carlo, and the balance point of the BC with fore mentioned stock installed.
im making a balance scale just for this, from pine boards and some felt.
taylor fit and balanced setup

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't worry about the C&H breaking, the metal tube is quite substantial and it appears the ends are sealed with epoxy. I've used the 7/8"x5"-16oz in the 45-120 BC, and hot loaded 45-70 and 500S&W H&Rs, it works better than almost twice as much dead weight which I've used also.

Tim


http://www.98.net/chr/
 

[grumpyErik]

Ok, i'll add my 2 cents. I have never shot the Whelen but I own an 1884 Trapdoor Springfield. I shot a big doe with anemic Remington factory 405gr softpoint ammo. The 405's were no match for deer and these are considered the low end of the power spectrum in 45/70 ammo. The bullet whizzed through the deer like it was not even there, minimal tissue damage, dead deer in 20 yards with a heart/lung shot. All in a load that kicks very little with little muzzle blast. If I did'nt have the Springfield I would get the handi synthectic with a 22" barrel and shoot factory 405 grainers. Trajectory is the only thing that stinks about the factory/trapdoor loads.