Just a quick question

[bigsby]

Hi, I am new here and kinda new to encores, My question is, can an encore rifle be converted into a pistol, using the same frame, and vise versa?

[SHOOTALL]

yep but a rifle can't have a bbl shorter than 16 inches and the rifle must be 26 inches long over all i believe ! but the frame works for either ! and maybe a hand gun bbl can't be longer than 15 in but not sure , Xp-100's were 15 inch bbl's for a reason

[Keith L]

This always gets a good argument going.  The only true test case that set the ability to change over was a supreme court case won by TC that established the right to convert a Contender pistol over to a carbine.  It was silent on changing a rifle to a pistol, and happened prior to the Encore being on the market.  It is up to you to decide how to convert, but I have all pistol frames, and convert them to rifles just to be on the safe side.  While it is a long shot that anyone would take this on I have no interest in the crowbar hotel and the folks that live there.  You need to decide what you want to do. 

For sure make sure if you have a rifle stock on the gun the barrel must be over 16 inches.  And find out what your state laws are on this sort of thing as well.

Have fun.

[Graybeard]

The ONLY thing the TC court case defined was that it was legal for TC to sell carbine/rifle barrels and butt stocks to be used in conjunction with TC Handgun frames. That's it. It had no impact on anything else and answered NO OTHER QUESTION of legality.

Federal law says you cannot make a handgun from a rifle. Thus unless and until a court case tests the legality of it taking a frame originally designated a rifle and making it into a handgun is technically illegal. I'm NOT gonna be the test case and I suggest you not be either unless you are super rich or have someone else paying your legal bills for you. Even if you are or do then ask yourself do you really wanna do the time IF YOU LOSE?

Now once upon a long time ago one employee who was the primary interface between company and the public went on record saying TC reports ALL FRAMES as handguns. I tend to believe this is so. All firearm manufacturers are required to report production figures periodically (dunno how often) to BATFE and report the serial numbers and whether the firearm is handgun, rifle or shotgun. That is the ONE AND ONLY THING that determines if that SN is rifle or handgun.

[SHOOTALL]

so if you convert a handgun to a rifle , you can't convert it back to a handgun ? since it has been a rifle ? not starting an argument just asking !
Remington put the XP-100 on the market a year before the 600 for the same reason .
When shooting IMHSA there was an article in it where the ATF had given its take on the conversion , it has been a long time since i read it so i won't try to remember it but if interested someone could contact them or the ATF for the latest ruling on the subject .

[Graybeard]

No that's NOT what I said or meant.

What makes the determination if a TC frame is a rifle, handgun or shotgun for that matter is how it was reported to BATFE. I personally suspect that even today TC reports all as handguns. BUT I am not sure on that matter.

At the time of the lawsuit won by TC they had never shipped a frame with butt stock or rifle barrel attached. ALL had shipped as bare frame or with hangun length barrel and handgun grips attached. Then TC started to market rifle barrels and buttstocks and the feds stepped in to stop that. TC went to court and the verdict rendered was it was OK for TC to market the "kits" as they were called back then to convert the handgun frames to rifles.

The case did not address whether TC could ship a frame with buttstock and rifle length barrel attached and later convert it to a handgun as TC was NOT doing that at the time and didn't have the fore sight to address the issue in the orginal case. Nor has anyone addressed it in court since.

So if your frame left TC and was reported to BATFE as a handgun then it should be perfectly legal to convert it to rifle by adding longer barrel and butt stock and then at your pleasure converting it back again to handgun. It didn't change legal status when you added buttstock and longer barrel as far as BATFE is concerned according to my understanding of the law. Once the frame is reported as rifle, handgun or shotgun or even muzzle loader since some now leave in those various configurations it is as far as BATFE is concerned always that configuration it was reported to them as. By that I mean the FRAME is whatever TC reports it to them as.

The problem is getting hard factual evidence of how TC reports them to BATFE. I make no pretense of knowing what TC does in this regard. I "THINK" all are reported as handgun but I do not "KNOW" that to be the case.

What I do KNOW is that I don't wanna be a test case in court on the matter. I also know that too many folks are reading way more into the original TC lawsuit that was not in it. They are making statements about things not covered in it as if fact when it is not fact.

If we could forever more determine how TC reports frames to TC or in your specific case how your frame by SN was reported then you'd know if you could make it both rifle and handgun. I know of no way to do that as TC doesn't seem inclined to respond to such questions. Nor to the best of my knowledge has BATFE been willing to respond in writing to questions about the matter.

Do as you wish as it's you NOT ME who will suffer any consequences if you do wrong and get caught. I think the chances of being caught and prosecuted are small but real nontheless. If your frame is a handgun as far as BATFE is concerned it should be fine to make it a rifle and then return it to handgun as many times as you wish. The original lawsuit pretty well covered that I believe.

What is not clear is if the frame left TC in the form of a rifle, shotgun or muzzle loading rifle what can you do regarding making it a handgun. I do not pretend to know the answer to that question. Anyone who does pretend to know is kidding both themselves and you. It's a real gray area not yet decided by a court case. Unless of course TC is actually doing as Tim (can't remember his last name right now) once long ago said that ALL frames are reported as handguns.

[SHOOTALL]

GB didn't mean you said it ! just a way to look at a silly law .
If it were me i might be inclined to see how the fed. form was written up but the person who sold it to me .

[Keith L]

If it were me i might be inclined to see how the fed. form was written up but the person who sold it to me .

I would only trust that if the person who filled out the form were going to take the penalty if it turned out to be wrong.  I tend not to get my legal advise from a salesman at the counter.  They don't have as much at stake as I do.  No jail time for me if I can help it.

[SHOOTALL]

i wouldn't trust him either , i would have to see how he listed it !

[Graybeard]

I don't much think that what the fed form required by GCA1968 says matters really. Sure it would be helpful to prove intent if it said handgun but the way it is initially reported to BATFE is the ONLY thing that matters in the long run and that's the piece of info there seems to be no way to be sure of.

What others do really matters not to me but for me I like to see the frame come to me NEW in TC's box that says it's a handgun if I'm gonna use it as a handgun.

Some day someone likely will get caught and a court case will occur. For all the rest of us other than that person it will be really good as then we'll know for sure how it's gonna go down. I sure ain't gonna be that person however.