209 primer in 25.acp breach plug

[jenkst]

I came across this idea a about two months ago looking through some archery  SUPER UNI BUSHINGS for aluminum arrows. Its the bushing that contains the plastic string nock. In my 7/8 breach plug I've found that the bushing that fits realy snug is the one for a 2016 or 2018 series arrow. There is several ways to fit them. You can shim directly under the uni bushing or you can stack one atop of another to prevent blow back. You will need to shorten the first one to be inserted to about 1/4 in. Or just use a shorten 25.acp piece of brass to about 1/4 in. You can also use a shorten piece of 17hmr brass directly under the 209 primer to keep things tight and clean. I use both methods togeather and dont get any blow back. The 17hmr brass and 209 primer fits inside the SUPER UNI BUSHING perfect. The inside of my breach plug stays much cleaner. By inserting each piece and gently closeing your muzzleloader you can determine just how much to remove for a tight fit. I also recomend thate you take your breach plug to a archery shop and ask them to allow you to find the size that stops just short of going all the way in without thumb presssure because they can be a bit hard to get out. I don't see any reason why it would'nt work on a 5/8 plug . I started useing standard CCI primers with 85 grains of BH209 and 250 grain shockwaves today. Have tried 300 gr. xtp and 80 grains of BH209 but not good groups. Going to up the powder more on the shockwaves. I use a file, wet or dry emery paper, and a sharpening stone to fit everything. Might help if you got a grinder but the pieces can be small, watch the fingers. I think its the best thing sence apple pie and Chev.  Please give me your ideas. Be looking forward to hearing some of your comments.

[jenkst]

I just want to simply clearify some things I posted on sept. nine on useing Super UNI bushings and 209 primers in a 25.acp breach plug. You only have to place a small washer of any kind under the uni bushing to get a proper clearance between the primer and frame. Its so simple and might cost you .50 cents. I recently tried 95 grs. of bh209 and 240 gr. xts. and got one in. group and no blow back. If you don't use two bushings or 17hmr brass you will get the hard to remove carbon crud that is very diffcult to see. I only found it by trying to insert a 25.acp brass and it wanted  to stick in the breach plug. You might try inserting a drill bit the size of your 25.acp brass and twisting it by hand to remove this carbon . Still have not got any hangfires with regular cci primers. Want to try magnum 209s for an even tighter group.

[PHATINJUN]

Were you having problems with ignition from your 25acp brass? Kurt

[jenkst]

Kurt, What few I tried was small rifle primers and got hangfires. I would like to try small rifle magnum primers but haven't gotten around to it. I wouldn't be to happy to lose a good deer over a primer. Here in Missouri it can be mild weather and not to cold during muzzleloader season but always a chance of it being wet. Iam thinking of sticking with Tripple 777 and the 25acp with rifle primers for this year and maybe when it get cold then try the BH209 with small rifle mag primers or just go with the UNI Bushing and 209 primers. I really trust the 209s with the uni bushing. My gut feeling is to stay with what you know works and let the BH209 prove itself on paper when its cold and wet. Its like if its wet do I take my wooden box caller or slate call or mouth call Turkey huntin? As in turkey huntin you most likley won't get a second shot. I think that most of the problem is with the primer siting so far away from the powder. If you could move it closer I believe pistol or rifle primers would do the job good but its not possible at this time. Kurt , thanks for responding and I"ll let you know if I can learn anymore about BH and what works and dont work. Jenks

[Busta]

jenkst sent me some Uni-Bushings in the mail, after my attempts to find the right size locally failed. I bought what was represented as 2013, 2016, and 2018 Uni-Bushings so I would have the right size, none fit. I think the place that sold them had them in the wrong drawer, or maybe the bushings jenkst has may be of another size. I have inserted one of these in the .25 ACP plug, and as jenkst stated they fit tight and will need about a .025" shim washer under the shoulder on the bushing, or on the front end of the plug. I realy think this idea has a lot of merit, but haven't shot this yet. Our gun season opens next Saturday, so it may be later in the season. I need to determine where and what I will shim with first though.

Thanks jenkst!

Pic of the .25 ACP to 209 Uni- Bushing conversion without shim.

[kody]

jenkst; I checked on those archery bushings today and found 4 sizes, but the clerk wasn't in the know as to the mfrs. name. The 4 sizes were 2016-18-20 and -22. It was claimed that the rim THICKNESS was the last 2 digits representing that thickness in thousandths. I'll bring a Hubbard-plug with next time and one of my 209 primers . Are there a number of different bushing mfrs. or is Uni-bushing the only one?  Ken

[jenkst]

Kody; I think the sales person gave you wrong information about the Super UNI Bushings. Take for example, a 2016 arrow means this: The 20 means the dia. of the arrow is 20/64 dia.. The 16 means the thickness of the metal 16/1000th inch thick. These numbers have nothing to do with the UNI BUSHING itself. This information is in any Easton archery arrow selection guide. Easton is the company that makes these bushing's. You are correct about the different bushing sizes, such as 2013,2014,2016,2018. As you can see the only thing that changes is the inside dia. of the arrow which means you use a thicker or thinner Super UNI Bushing. The numbers have nothing to do with the rim thickness because---the rim doesn't go inside the arrow. The bushing stops going inside the arrow--at the rim. The rim just prevents it from going down inside the arrow. There are two more I think I should tell you. 1. Now Iam talking about the bushing its self, so we can forget about arrow sizes for now. The inside dia. of the bushing,( where the plastic nock would fit  that would hold the arrow on the bow sting) never changes. That's the hole where you would place your 209 primer. So there's no adjustinng for primer size in this hole. 2. This is the bad news.--This will not work on your Hubbard breach plug. Its designed for a 209 primer already. This uni bushing idea works only with the 25acp breach plug only. What Iam about to say is only my 2 cents worth of understanding about a Hubbard plug. It sounds like they made the primer hole to deep and that lets the blow back come around the primer and into the action. It sounds like its not the dia. of the primer hole( I've seen where it looks to lose to do any good) its the depth of the primer hole. I'll suggest one more trick you could try. Here goes-- take some teflon tape and wrap the powder side of your breach (maybe two or three wraps) and I think the thickness of the tape might move your breach plug and primer back closer to the frame thus keeping the primer more snug. It might have the effect as having a longer primer. Folks use tape to keep the blow back from coming back into the threads and making a mess with tripple7 powder. It might not take but a small amount of moving the breach plug toward the frame to turn this hubbard plug into a real jewel to own. Your very fortunate to have it.Kody I can't think of any think else I could tell you to help. Keep at it and don't give up.   Jenks

[jenkst]

Kody; If you don't want to try the teflon tape then do this. You can do this without useing powder or sabots. Just place a primer in your breach plug and then back the breach plug out between 1/8 and 1/4 turn, then gently try and close it. What your trying to find is at point the breach plug with primer inserted will close. You'll have play around screwing in out to do this. What you find is at point the primer has less movement lengthwise. Try fireing and if you don't get any blowback with just a primer you have identfied the problem. It would be tempting to say its not going to hold back the pressure with powder and sabot but it will. All it cost is the cost of a few primers. If this works I have an idea of how to cure it.           Jenks

[kody]

 I 'm confused. You say the 2016 number has nothing to do with the uni -bushing? That number is ON the bushing. If the 20 identifies the arrow size as 20/64" and all of the bushings have that as an OD [.3125"] how can it fit into a .25ACP chamber? [.277"] The number 16; is that supposed to indicate wall thickness of the bushing . As far as backing the breechplug out to obtain the right plug/primer headspacing, could a crush -copper washer spacer be used at the forward end of the breechplug to seal that gap?  Back to the uni-bushings; I could have sworn that I saw 3 different rim thicknesses on those bushings. Wishful thinking perhaps because I thought that might help in the shimming of the spacer.  Ken

[jenkst]

Kody; You got some of it right. These numbers are found only on the arrow shaft, not on the bushing. Sorry if I confused you. What I did was take my 25acp plug to a archery shop, I know one of the guys who works there, I ask him to find me a Super UNI Bushing that would fit snug where the 25acp goes in. His tray of bushings was sort of mixed up if you know what mean. His guess was that the correct size needed was  for a 2016 or 2018 arrow. I came home and found some of my bent arrows, found a 2016 and 2018. The bushings fit the 2016 arrow. If you go the 25acp route take the bushing with you and ask them if you or they would find the correct size that takes a just a little finger pressure to make it seat and have no side to side movement. And don't even think about the numbers. Busta tried finding the correct size (I told him 2016 or 2018) without taking his breach plug with him and he came with the wrong size. One other is I have the 25acp plug for my Encore, so I tried fiting the same bushing in that breach plug and it was a little lose. Thats another reason to take the breach plug with you. About useing a copper washer for a shim, don't do it. I learned a big lesson doing this and damaged my barrel. What happened was that the soft copper shim will expand or obturate just like a conical bullet when fired. I damged my barrel trying to get it out. I do mean it was tight. Don't use any soft metal for a shim that goes on the powder side of your breach plug. I would use stainless steel. If I were you I would try just a primer only and back the plug out just a little at a time and try stopping the blow back problem like that. Then you've got a idea as to what your step would be. Hope this helps.  Jenks

[jenkst]

Was trying to think of another idea of how to use a 209 primmer in a 25acp breach plug. I have never tried this, just only on paper. Was looking at Easton's arrow chart and was trying to find the arrow with the right dia. that would come close to the dia. of the 25acp hole in my breach plug. As best as I can tell the hole (not the brass) measures about 9/32 inch or .28125. And any 18 series arrow measures .28125 inch or 9/32 out side dia. They make about five different 18 series arrows with different wall thickness's. From what I've learned about 209 primers they range in width from .241 inch to .244 inch. If you take a 1820 arrow(.28125 out side dia. minus the wall thickness x two = 0.24125 . You can see the inside dia. of a 1820 is very close to the dia. of a 209 primer. All you might need to do is cut it to the length of a 25acp brass. If the 18 series arrow fits to tight in the breach plug, you might try a 17 series arrow. (0.265625 dia.) I've been told a 25acp measures .277 inch. My 25acp brass fits my breach plug rather lose. I have not done any math on the inside dia. of 17 series arrow. (1712 to 1716) 2005 arrow selection guide. If this would work, you would not need any shims as with a SUPER UNI Bushing. And might be eaiser to find the arrows you need. Wal-Mart might have these smaller arrows. It's just an idea you might want to think about.

[jenkst]

I all most forgot this. I don't know the strength these alloy shafts compared to the 25acp brass. I do know that when fired the 25acp does not enlarge like a center fire cartridge. I don't if the shaft would enlarge. I do know the SUPER UNI Bushings don't enlarge. You might try very light loads first.