'nuther .35 Whelen question

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The 200 grain .358 diameter bullet has about the same sectional density as a 150 grain .308 diameter bullet.  Why are the B.C.'s of the .358s poorer than the B.C.'s of the .30's?

It just seems like it's hard to find a 200 grain bullet with a B.C. in the 0.4's, or even high 0.3's.  To get such a B.C. in .35 it looks like you've got to go with a 225 grain bullet, but then you lose a little velocity.

I think the .35's would get a lot more "respect" if they had more bullets with good B.C.'s  Otherwise the .35s seem to be relegated as "brush gun".  But the Whelen being capable of velocities as good as a .30-06 is hardly limited to short range - if only it had some decent bullets to push.

Is there some physical limitation that causes this?  Or is it just that the manufacturers don't want to put the R&D into aerodynamic .35s?

[Dixie Dude]

Check out this site.  You are right about having more bullet selections.

http://www.35cal.com/

[Dixie Dude]

I guess no one else has much to say here, but I think Winchester pushed their .338 WM cartridge and later the .300 WM. and made their rifles for their calibers over the Whelen back in the 50's and 60's and it became more popular.  Next up was the old .375 HH cartridge which was well established.  The .35 Remington was considered a brush gun, and I think the same was attached to the Whelen even though it has a much better range and accuracy.  I do wish they would make good pointed boat tail bullets to improve the accuracy and range of the Whelen. 

[bajabill]

I find the official reloading data to be very discouraging.  It is easy to find data for the 338-06 that exceeds that for the 35 whelen.  I guess any time you get Weatherby involved with a round, the envelope will be pushed.

[Sourdough]

I use two .350 Rem Mags, and two .35 Whelens, over bait for Black Bears.  225gr Nosler Partitions in all.  Can't tell any difference between the two different rounds, but they sure knock Black Bears down hard.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I find the official reloading data to be very discouraging.  It is easy to find data for the 338-06 that exceeds that for the 35 whelen.  I guess any time you get Weatherby involved with a round, the envelope will be pushed.

I don't know if Weatherby has anything to do with it.  The .338-06 data although it seems to yield better velocities it doesn't look like the pressures "push the envelope".

But for some reason I find data with other powders used in the .338-06 than in the .35 Whelen.  Such as H414.  That seems to perform really well in the .338-06 so why can't I find any data for the Whelen and H414?

I guess I'll just have to buy lots of Nosler's Accubonds in .358.  Then perhaps if other companies see Nosler is selling a .35 bullet with a good B.C. the other companies will get on the stick.

[Dixie Dude]

What are your bullet sizes, and what loads for your particular game?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I'm still new to the .35 Whelen.  I've only had it about two years.

So far I played with 200 grain Remington RNs and 200 grain Remington PSPs.  And also some 250 grain Hornady RNs.  The 200 grain PSPs I had at the very start and I thought they were worthless.  I may give them another try as I suspect I blew most of those PSPs just breaking in the barrel (Adams and Benet).

I also have a 280 grain cast bullet that I wrap in paper jackets. 

I've tried Bl-C(2) but, again, that was during the break-in period so I may have erroneously dismissed it as a poor performer.  Now I've been working with Reloader-15 and am fairly happy with it.  With 1/2 grain over the Max charge RL-15 pushes a 200 grain bullet 2750 fps.  I may switch back to Bl-C(2) since I should be able to beat that velocity without exceeding a max charge.  I'll stick with the RL-15 for the heavier bullets though as that powder seems to top the heap for .35 Whelen.  RL-15 seems to be working really well with the paper-patched 280s. 

[rickt300]

The first Whelen I laid eyes on was an original 1895 Winchester lever action that had been rebored. I know many were made from 1903 Springfield actions. I'd say the reason 35 Whelen data seems light is because it is in respect to these older actions.  Also most of us can get by with a 250 grain bullet at 2500 fps or a bit better. In my rifle I use H380 and IMR 4320 for the 250's and Imr 3031 for the 200 grain bullets.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the '95s and '03s chambered in Whelens.

[bajabill]

Hot dam, Im back in this game.

Got my A&B barrel for the Savage in the mail yesterday from Midway.  Now I have to break that barrel nut loose.

[deltecs]

The 200 grain .358 diameter bullet has about the same sectional density as a 150 grain .308 diameter bullet.  Why are the B.C.'s of the .358s poorer than the B.C.'s of the .30's?

It just seems like it's hard to find a 200 grain bullet with a B.C. in the 0.4's, or even high 0.3's.  To get such a B.C. in .35 it looks like you've got to go with a 225 grain bullet, but then you lose a little velocity.

I think the .35's would get a lot more "respect" if they had more bullets with good B.C.'s  Otherwise the .35s seem to be relegated as "brush gun".  But the Whelen being capable of velocities as good as a .30-06 is hardly limited to short range - if only it had some decent bullets to push.

Is there some physical limitation that causes this?  Or is it just that the manufacturers don't want to put the R&D into aerodynamic .35s?

In answer to your question, yes it is physical limitations.  The formula for sectional density is divide the bullet weight in pounds (200/7000) by the square of diameter.  So for a 200 gr .358 bullet its sectional density is .223, a 200 gr in .338 is .250, a 200 gr in .308 is .301, a 200 gr in .284 is .354, a 200 gr in .264 is .410.  It obvious for the same weight bullet that the smaller in diameter has the higher sectional density.  A .264 bullet with a sectional density of .410 would be extremely long indeed.  A 300 gr in .338 with a sectional density of .375 is about 1 1/2 inches long.  A bullet that long has to have a higher twist rate to stabilize its flight.  Then the twist is too fast for lighter weight bullets.  A happy medium is reached when the twist rate will stabilize a bullet with sectional densities from .200 to .300 or slightly more with relatively good accuracy.  Most hunting loads have bullets within that range.  Even the .458 bore needs a bullet of 600 gr to achieve sectional density of .408.  Yet most hunting bullets for this bore are in the neighborhood of 480-550 gr for DG.  I personally prefer using bullets approaching .250 sectional density for most hunting and up to .330 for larger game.  Lower sectional density bullets do the job, but I've had much better and surer penetration with bullets having .250 or close to it.

[rickt300]

It is funny just how important some people make sectional density out to be. The truth is that bullet construction, velocity and mass count at least as much as the numbers, actually more as the numbers are just a guide. In comparing how 200 grain bullets perform out of the Whelen to the 150 grain bullets out of the various 30's I find the 200 grain bullets penetrate deeper than the 150's respectivly if both are constructed similarly. In truth the Whelen shoots plenty flat enough for any reasonable purpose as you don't normally shoot large game at long distance and if a pointed 200 grain bullet at 2750fps doesn't shoot flat enough for you your needs are getting pretty specialized.

[deltecs]

Sectional density is very important for straight line penetration even with expanding bullets.  As far as penetration is concerned momentum along with sectional density is the major determining factor.  Take the 200 gr Whelen's momentum and compare it to the 150 gr from an 06.  The Whelen velocity is 2650 while the 06 is traveling at 2800 fps.  This is about typical velocities from each.  The formula for momentum is weight of the bullet in pounds times the velocity.  Momentum is defined as the measurement of inertia.  Anyway 200/7000 X 2650=75 lb/ft.   The 06 150/7000 X 2800=60 pd/ft.  Now it is obvious that the .35 Whelen has more momentum and penetrates farther in the same material all things considered.  Both have comparable sectional densities so the path of the penetration should be similar.  However, any comparison between different sectional density bullets makes for different results.  Take the 200 gr in the 06 and compare it with the 200 gr from the Whelen.  Different story altogether.  If both bullets have the same velocity, the momentum values are identical, yet the sectional density of the 200 gr. .308 is .301 while the .35 Whelen has a sec den of .223.  The energy values are identical, the momentum values are identical, the only difference is the sectional density values.  Which one do you think will penetrate farther in the same target material?

[rickt300]

Comparing a 200 grain 35 caliber to a 150 grain 30 caliber is a fair comparison using Sectional density as a base. Comparing a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet to a 250 grain 35 caliber bullet is a fair comparison. Which do you think will give better performance. Also with good reloads 2800 fps is reachable with 225 grain bullets out of the Whelen so why did you top the 200 grain bullets out at 2650 fps, a velocity reachable with the 358 Winchester? Though I feel comparisons are odious if they must be done they should be done fairly.

[deltecs]

Ok, I was using a different reference source, so this one directly from Barnes.  .308 150 gr at 2900 has 62. pd/ft of momentum.  A 200 gr .358 at 2750 is 78.5 pd/ft.  Either way the 200 gr Whelen is going to penetrate farther than the 30 bore with this weight bullet.  As far as sectional density is concerned, the post's question was relevant to it.  Comparison of similar sectional density bullets of different diameters will always result in the bigger bore having the better momentum and penetration without question, if the velocity is high.  However, when one considers the different sectional densities of bullets with different diameters having the same energy level, the same momentum value, the same bullet weight, the one with the smaller bore will penetrate farther due sectional density alone.  That was the point I was attempting to make is that sectional density does matter even with expanding bullets.  It matters within the same bore or the same cartridge.  A 200 gr .358 at 2800 has momentum of 80.  A 250 gr at 2500 is 89.  The energy is 3481 ft/pds and 3469 respectively.  The energy levels are identical for all practical purposes.  I'll bet anyone though that the 250 gr traveling with less velocity and less energy will penetrate farther in the same medium with like type bullets, expanding or solids.  This is due to momentum and sectional density alone.

[rickt300]

Sectional density has some value in comparing bullets before they are expanded and obviously more SD in the same caliber means a longer bullet. The SD if it could be measured after the bullet expands would also be a rough guide, this would be where bullet construction comes into play. Barrel twist can also come into play. I had a 30-06 with a 1 in 12 inch twist and took this rifle hunting moose using 220 grain bullets and thinking I had the ideal combination, turns out the bullets shot well enough but 2 out of three tumbled in the moose giving me a dead moose but not so good penetration. Another thing, it seems a lot of bullets from 284 to at least 358 are designed to have a final expanded diameter of approximately 60 caliber. So take a 175 grain 7MM bullet and a 250 grain 358 bullet expanded to 60 caliber and compare them. Naturally the 7MM bullet will have a longer "shank" which will make it a bit less stable during penetration. I do agree SD is good for rough comparison value but too many variables come into play to make it useful for more than that.