Author Topic: Thin handguns under 1-inch  (Read 1593 times)

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Offline jcsabolt2

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Thin handguns under 1-inch
« on: July 02, 2003, 01:35:15 AM »
Hello guys!  My post No. 2 on this forum.  Which manufacturers make firearms that are 9mm power and above that are under 1" in thickness?  I took a look at a Glock and Kahr several months ago and the Glock was nearly 1/4" thicker.  The Kahr could easily be concealed in a pocket.  Specifically I was looking at the Kahr MK40 and I believe the Glock 39.
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Offline DEPUTY

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Thin handguns under 1-inch
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2003, 04:34:13 AM »
just think of this, if it is to ssmall to get a good proper firing grip on the gun you will almost never  be likley to get good purchase on the grip to the draw the gun  from concealment  in a fast proper manor while under stress!  also the smaller and lighter the gun and thinner the grip the more recoil will be transfered to you! so choose wisely! and re think some thoughts

Offline Mikey

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Less than an inch
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2003, 04:58:02 AM »
jcsabolt2, Deputy is right about that with only one exception that I can think of and that is the TT33 Tokarev and variants.  These are all steel guns produced by Norinco, also made in Poland as well as Russia.  It is a slim handy piece that is rock bottom basic and totally reliable in it's functioning.  

It's primary caliber is the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, which is a 1400+'/sec bottlenecked cartridge.  It is a hot, smokin' round.  When you shoot a Tok on the range, lots of others want to see where the pressure waves come from.  It's flat-shooting and fast.  

I once had a Russian immigrant laugh at my Tok because he said that during the Russian winters, when Police would shoot at poeple with their Tokarevs, the bullets would hit them but they would keep on running and shake the bullets out of their heavy clothing when they got home.  Some trouble-makers, he said, kept a box full (small box) of those projectiles.  But when I asked how much clothing those people would wear, he indicated something close to a depth of 5" of heavy clothing - that's body armor capability.  When I asked him how close the targets were to the shooters, he indicated 50 yds or better.  Well, give me a break, the 9mm won't do any better and it's questionable as to whether the 45 would have any effect on the same sort of an'armored' target.  

The Tokarevs come with a superfluous frame mounted safety.  The Polish pistols place their differently than the Chinese made pistols and are more reliable as a result.  I prefer to carry mine as they were made to be carried, on half cock.  The half cock of the Tokarev is not the same weak half-cock of the 1911 or Browning P-35 system - it is a fully squared 'C' shaped half cock notch that is designed to prevent the pistol from being fired if dropped.  The only problem some of the Russian troops had was that they carried it fully cocked and stuck in their waistband and when they grabbed for it they would accidentally discharge it.

I once wrote to Massad Ayoob about disabling the frame mounted safety in favor of half cock carry and his response was (1) the Tok is an obsolete design, made in 1933 and should be forgotten  - well, what about the world's most popular 1911, huh? (2) the cartridge wasn't powerful enough - well, whereya been Mass, when the Commies reduced the role of the handgun in combat from an offensive weapon to a defensive weapon, they went to the 9x18 Makarov catridge.  Duh! (3) Unless I knew more that the gunmakers did I was looking a serious liability in the courts if anything ever happened - the very next Shotgun News came out with a thorough article on the Tok that substantiated exactly what I had said and made him look a bit like an uninformed idjit - so be it Mr. Ayoob - in that the safety I had sought to disable was a BATF add-on requirement for import to the US.

Now, the Tok comes in the original 7.62x25mm cartridge, which is readily availalbe from Sellier and Bellot, Winchester, and a number of foreign mil-surp suppliers.  You can also get 9mm barrels for them if you want to shoot the 9mm.  I purchased mine with a 38 Super barrel and it works just fine (the 9x23mm is too hot for it but the factory or factory equivalent handloads in 38 Super are just fine).  If you can't find a 38 Super barrel you can always have a 9mm barrel chamber lengthened to handle the 9x23/38 Super case and use 38 Super loadings.  

Have I finished yet?  Think so.  This be Mikey.

Offline JeffG

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Thin handguns under 1-inch
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2003, 03:55:35 PM »
A friend of mine was buying a Tokey from a Polish gentleman once.  He was struck by the fact it had no safety...He asked the Polish guy, "where is the safety?"  The guy just looks at hime and said, "Safety? Safety? Is gun is not safe!" :D
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Offline Mikey

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Toks
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2003, 09:17:27 AM »
ck:  these pistols usually run about $125 now.  I got mine, plus the 38 super barrel and half a dozen magazines for that price 12 years ago.  The price hasn't gone up much.

The Polish gentleman referred to in JeffG's post didn't know his Tok - the half cock was designed to be the only safety necessary.  If you ever take a Tok's trigger groups apart you will see that the hammer has a definite squared C notch that acts as the half cock safety - ya'll can't bust it with a hammer.  It is an effective safety.  

I still see them in the Shotgun News.  If you can find a Polish made version they are better than the Chinese versions because of the position and more reliable functioning of the BATF required safety, which is located differently than on the Chinese pistols.  You should be able to easily find one in the original 7.62x25mm caliber.  I believe Navy Arms also carries the 9mm barrel conversions and it would require minimal gunsmithing to have one of the 9mm chambers lengthened to handle the 9x23mm/38 Super case dimension.  Also, Wolfe recoil springs are availalbe for the Tok in the 38 Super chambering and I woudl simply use 9x23 brass with 38 Super factory loadings.

The best 7.62x25mm ammo out there is from Sellier and Bellot.  It is pretty darn inexpensive but it is brand spankin' new and non-corrosive.  It is some flat shootin' stuff.  Winchester is now also making the 7.62x25mm to about the same specs.  Some of the European surplus is pretty good too, especially if it is the Austrian or Checkoslovakian stuff but I believe the S&B is better/best.  If you reload, I believe either Hornaday or Sierra makes an 85 grain soft nose bullet in .308 for that caliber that should work well.  

It's a flat shooting caliber and although the sights are basic and rudimentary, with a bit of practice you can knock over a #10 can at 100 yds.  Once a bunch of years ago a buddy and I were out hunting small game one winter and chased a wabbit behind a wheel rim with a tire that had come from a small garden tractor.  My buddy thought his 38 might go through the rubber, which it did but the wabbit was behind the rim.  When I shot, I missed the tire I was aiming at but hit the rim - the bullet penetrated through the rim and bammed the bunny.  We added him to the game bag for dinner that night but didn't stop laughing all the way home.  The darn caliber has power.  If your friends at the range don't stand behind you they will most likely either be impressed or bothered by the concussiveness (?) of the report.  

Hope this helps.  Mikey