For Dee; a question for a former LEO..

[ironglow]

  News out of Maryland...A convict taken in leg shackles, to hospital for illness complaint...overcomes 2 armed guards, takes their weapons and escapes..
   There have been a recent rash of prisoners "overcoming" their guards, such as the one in Georgia who was finally persuaded by a Bible using hostage, too surrender.
 
   Any idea what gives ? Is there a plausible explanation ?  Is there something I'm missing ?

        Somehow, I don't think they would have gotten away with it, had you been their guard !

[Dee]

I would look at the prisoner, first, then the capability of the guards to secure, and keep secure a prisoner based on intel. When an investigator for an S.O., I have been designated to transport high risk prisoners to the doctor, and to the Texas Dept of Corrections Diagnostic in Huntsville, Tx. I have been told by medical personnel to remove leg irons, belly chains, and cuffs at which time, I advised them, that they were medical personnel, and that I was in charge of the prisoner, and the equipment stayed on the prisoner. And it did.
I am not an advocate of sending women to guard high risk male prisoners (chauvinist in that respect), and I am of the opinion that ANY prisoner regardless of crime, is capable of making the decision to try an escape on any given day. With this in mind, I treated them all the same, and did not suffer loss of a prisoner in transport, not to mention the embarrassment. Prior to the transport, the prisoner himself was interviewed, and the rules were explained CLEARLY to him, along with the consequences of any foolishness. That's what worked for me, and the fact that I am suspicious and untrusting by nature.

[Dee]

Dee ...... sounds like a good solid procedure and policy you practiced and with that nobody should get hurt.

My question is rather general....What do you and other LEOs, think when some prisoner makes good on an escape? Or better yet resist apprehension or incarceration to high degree? I'm sure you all are thinking about doing the job and getting these people under control quickly. But what do you think of those kind of hard cases now that you're off the front line?


...TM7

TM7 when a prisoner make good on an escape, it is a failure of the system providing security, whether it be confinement, or transport. Over the years I was called into man hunts, as a tracker, and assisted in coordinating man hunts for other depts. I was on call to ANY dept, that needed an SRT team, or Tactical K-9, and occasionally was called.
Each time I found it was usually human error when a prisoner escaped. Resistance in an escape warrants the use of deadly force if necessary, at least in Texas, and bringing them under control as quickly as possible should always be the goal. I am a large guy and not fat, and during my career I was a power lifter, lifting weights 5 days a week, and winning my weight class every time in small power meets, and let me say this. I met numerous men in my 20 year career that I could not whip. I could hold on to them until help got there, but anyone whom thinks they can take any one that comes along, has not been on the street, or is lying.
Well basically, I am pretty busted up from injuries over the years, and am paying for the life style of a career such as that, but have not changed my mind at all concerning outlaws of that kind. I am out of it, and am glad, and if forced to deal with one, I would advise him to be wearing a vest, as I am in no condition physically to go a few rounds with him, nor do I have the patience to put up with his type of foolishness. But then I never did.

[Rogue Ram]

I supervise a squad that deals with 10-20 of these people on a daily basis.  Some are facing life, some many decades, others, have the gang thing going (kill a cop or a CO and you're a hero).  Its hard to tell how many are smart enough to just "do their time" vs the ones that will take a chance to escape or be assaultive. That is why our policy is simple: they all get treated the same.  Unless you are dealing with a podunk agency, escapes are human error.

Armed COs or LEOs in a transport or guard setting have NO business handling the prisoner, period. The situation of the elderly Florida Deputy that was overpowered and murdered by an escaping prisoner is completely unacceptable. I hope the agency gets sued to bankruptcy for allowing a transport Deputy in his 70s to handle prisoners by himself, and be armed while doing it.

Like Dee said, there are those of us that are not young anymore, busted up, and despite the fact many of these prisoners are savage illiterate morons, many of them are TOUGH. Tough as nails. Most have nothing better to do than sit around and work out. If they have done or are doing hard time, they are hooked up with a gang, they are taught how to survive by the best, and work out non-stop. While we are sitting here on the net, I guarantee you there are many of these guys out there locked up either pumping iron or doing calisthenics (sp?) until they drop, and they would kill a CO at the drop of the hat if given the opportunity. The key is to not give them the opportunity.

Unfortunately we lost the ability to shoot escaping prisoners under Reno and Klinton unless threat of death or serious physical injury is imminent.  And don't think they all know it.....        Sounds like Texas has it right.

RR

[ironglow]

TM7;

   It sure seems to me that if a person is not "programmed" to accept capture or time in the slammer, then he shouldn't do stupid things that get him locked up !
  Perhaps I am thinking too logically though..so maybe the "stupid" tag is appropriate.

[williamlayton]

Depends on how you use the word stupid--it is not totally a poor choice of words and may be the best.
I don't view these folks as being without sense---the fact that they survive has some amount of sense involved.
They--as are many--totally out of step with a society that wishes freedom and liberty. They can only function in a very controlled environment--under close supervision and within well defined rules. Some in the military are much the same though they are more socially adjusted than those who have less than or no social structure (anti-social is a good term). This should not in any way be taken as a defamation of any that would make the military a career--other folks in other jobs are the same---doesn't make you a bad person.
Trust is the main offense these folks have and a person in charge of supervising these individuals should never put theirownselves in a position of needing too trust these individuals.
They are not trustworthy and have proved themselves to be such in a court of law.
I agree that those who are very weak, physically, should take extreme caution when transporting or supervising these individuals. Never letting their guard down---which is what I presume happened. IMO.
Blessings