Author Topic: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 1495 times)

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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« on: January 10, 2008, 07:14:44 AM »
Hydrogen cars are being tested. I believe this is a great thing. It will get us off foreign oil and no emisions to boot. Dale http://autos.aol.com/article/green-hub/_a/fuel-cells-becoming-reality/20071210185609990002
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 07:29:09 AM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 11:32:55 AM »
I saw a video on the hydrogen long before Matt had posted. This one started with a demonstration with a hand held torch and ended with automotive use.
In the torch demo, they ran the flame at an angle on a piece of stainless and showed Zero negative emmisions...Just Water.

My question is will that same Water greatly reduce the OIL LIFE of the engine? it has to be harder on it than the petroleum based gasoline which does find its way to the oil pan.
There may also be some questions of the lubrication quality of hydrogen in the valve train. Could end up with a lean, hot running engine that has water in the oil to boot hahaha
Testing Will Tell. Hope it goes well.

Offline PartsMan

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 11:39:42 AM »
Most are using a fuel cell.
Basically a battery you put hydrogen in to charge.
No moving parts to oil.
This is used to run an electric motor.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 12:04:52 PM »
Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas today.  Natural gas is almost pure methane which is CH4, one carbon - 4 hydrogens.  Water is of course H2O and takes more energy to get the same amount of hydrogen.  If we go to hydrogen fuel cells, it will drive up the price of natural gas which is already being driven up because all new power plants built during the "Klinton" administration were natural gas, not coal or nuclear, because of environmental wakos.  I know this because I am an engineer with a gas utility.   75% of the carbon emissions today are from coal burning power plants and industry.  We need to go to a modular nuclear power system, built to navy standards, like the ships, for electrical power.  Then use the coal to make synthetic gasoline and diesel fuel.  No foreign oil to import, cuts carbon emissions, and breaks us free from Arab oil.  We have an 800 year supply of coal in the US. 

Offline Matt

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 06:03:05 PM »
I saw a video on the hydrogen long before Matt had posted. This one started with a demonstration with a hand held torch and ended with automotive use.
In the torch demo, they ran the flame at an angle on a piece of stainless and showed Zero negative emmisions...Just Water.

My question is will that same Water greatly reduce the OIL LIFE of the engine? it has to be harder on it than the petroleum based gasoline which does find its way to the oil pan.
There may also be some questions of the lubrication quality of hydrogen in the valve train. Could end up with a lean, hot running engine that has water in the oil to boot hahaha
Testing Will Tell. Hope it goes well.

A engine using hydrogen is a bit different than one on gas;

Little to no heat transfer to the metal
exhaust is water (once the air cools at the muffler)
Oil life can tripple or more due to no heat to cause the breakdown to start

There is so much potenial in hydrogen fuel if the government and big oil would just let it happen.

Matt


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Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 03:34:18 AM »
Great Points!
I especially liked the Fuel Cell/Elect motor version although the video showed that it worked in an internal combustion also with great mileage.

The question will still be if the special interest (read oil companies) will let this happen. If you have the best of everything plus LearJets at your disposal, that guy who
Is making $15.00 an hour and is paying $600 per month for health insurance is kind of out of sight, out of mind if you know what I mean. Maybe we can bilk him for just a few
More Years? He can always work overtime and send his wife to work to makeup the difference.

Offline tomzuki

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 05:07:33 AM »
Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas today.  Natural gas is almost pure methane which is CH4, one carbon - 4 hydrogens.  Water is of course H2O and takes more energy to get the same amount of hydrogen.  If we go to hydrogen fuel cells, it will drive up the price of natural gas which is already being driven up because all new power plants built during the "Klinton" administration were natural gas, not coal or nuclear, because of environmental wakos.  I know this because I am an engineer with a gas utility.   75% of the carbon emissions today are from coal burning power plants and industry.  We need to go to a modular nuclear power system, built to navy standards, like the ships, for electrical power.  Then use the coal to make synthetic gasoline and diesel fuel.  No foreign oil to import, cuts carbon emissions, and breaks us free from Arab oil.  We have an 800 year supply of coal in the US. 

You got it right!  All this needs to be done immediately.  Our future as a stable, defendable country is at stake.  I would also add that all consumable manufacturing must be brought back to our own economy.  This would surely increase job opportunity, but we need to have a decent size manufacturing base to supply our military defense.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 05:44:15 AM »
The Fed spending is about 20% of the national economy, States and local govn'ts are probably 10-20%.  Just require that ALL fed, state, and local purchases of any products be manufactured in America.  This would automatically bring back about 30-40% of the manufacturing base.  Free trade can work, BUT it must be fair trade.  For instance Japan can make TV's for $100, USA can make Rocking Chairs for $100.  Japan by importing the wood, ect, could make rocking chairs for $200.  America because of costs could make TV's but for $200.  It makes sense to trade with each other to keep consumer costs down.  If however, a country like China, with $0.10 per hour wages with no insurance, benefits, or social security trades with us it is not fair trade.  Trade with foreign countries should be on parity so no there would be no trade deficits, and be fair.  We need to require them to begin implementing our standards, like work weeks, child labor, envirnomental, etc, if they are to continue trading with us, to make it more fair. 

My plan above would help the environment, keep the coal companies happy, and require the oil companies to invest in the coal gasification plants to keep them happy.  The oil companies either have to buy the oil to refine, or buy the coal to gasify.  So, make them gasify coal.  Then, we can develop the electric or hybrid cars to further help.  Going to alcohol will only drive the food prices up, it would however help farmers, but it will mostly be large farming corporations, not individual farmers that would be helped the most. 

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 12:11:42 PM »
TM7.  How would transferring coal burning power plants to making synthetic diesel and gasoline dirty?  Since 75% of carbon emissions are coal burning power plants, converting them to nuclear power would eliminate that.  Vehicles are the remaining 25%.  It doesn't matter if they are burning imported oil or synthetic coal derived oil.  My plan would make everyone happy except maybe people who are afraid of nuclear power.  Coal companies stay in business, oil companies stay in business.  Then we can begin the long technology curve to hybrid and later electric vehicles.

The problem is with the current infrastructure.  We have enough pipelines carrying oil, gasoline, diesel, and natural gas to go to the moon twice.  Until hydrogen cracking can be massively done on an economical scale and the infrastructure for transporting it, for the 175,000,000 vehicles we have in this country, it will be a very long haul curve taking several years to eventually get away from fossil fuels for vehicles. 

My plan would take 5-10 years to implement.  Beginning right now it would take 5-10 years to build an place in service a nuclear power plant.  Coal gasification plants may take less time.  But both should begin now.  Throw in some windmills in the plain states and coastal states, we can easily get away from coal burning power.  In order to keep the coal workers, railroads, trucking etc busy delivering coal and not loosing jobs, that industry can be converted to coal gasification for synthetic fuels, until we can get hybrids and electric cars low cost and practical, and mass produced.  Half of our imports is oil, solves the trade deficit, keeps jobs at home, and produces good high paying jobs, especially in nuclear power plants using already trained retired navy personnel and in the coal gasification plants  It may take 20 years or more to get hybrids and electrics to make a significant impact on the vehicles. 

Another thing to consider, diesels get higher mileage than gasoline vehicles.  Now if you make a hybrid diesel, you might could double mileage.  Another thing to consider, you get more diesel fuel from a barrel of oil than gasoline.  Less oil needed, less imports. 

France produces 85% of its electricity from nuclear, Germany 50%, Great Brittan, 50%.  Germany also produces about 10-15% from wind.  Europe is way ahead using nuclear and wind, especially those three.  We produce about 25% from nuclear, 40% from coal, 15% from natural gas, 10% from hydro, the rest from wind and fuel oil.  We have not begun to scratch the surface for wind, except in some plains states and California. 

Offline Brett

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 05:09:57 AM »
Dude, I wish you were in charge of our National Department of Energy.  Sounds to me like you have the answers well thought out.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 11:49:48 AM »
I am an engineer with a natural gas utility for 32 years.  I have seen a lot, read a lot, and I do have one other plan, but it too will take years to implement.  Using the natural gas transmission and distribution system for hydrogen gas.  You would start in the northeast the end of the national system.  Use excess wind offshore or nuclear power during non-peek usage times, and take the excess electricity produced to manufacture hydrogen from sea water. Then pump it into the natural gas system.  Hydrogen alone is about twice as powerful as natural, so you operate at lower pressures within the same system.  There is one drawback.  Hydrogen burns invisible, so you would have to install steel wool covers over all burners so they would glow red when the hydrogen is burned so you would know a burner was on.  You can use the same odorant for smell for safety.  You would have to convert one system, one town at a time.  If you notify all manufacturers in advance, they could supply the steel wool burner covers with all new appliances made, then you would have to convert the holdouts before your could switch to hydrogen.  You could start with a blend of hydrogen and natural, then cut back on the natural.  This also would have to be a 20 year plan to eventually replace all the natural with hydrogen.  The key to any major reduction in imported oil, clean air, etc, is to eventually have to go nuclear, and wind whereever possible.  Waiting like we have been doing since 1973 arab oil embargo, is stupid.  Problem is, the republicans want to open Alaska, more offshore drilling, and really play token to alternative proposals.  The democrats want everyone to cut use, live in cold or hot homes, small homes, drive Yugos an Civics, and really do nothing else.  To have an expanding vibrant economy, we need lots of energy, at resonable prices, at the same time don't import it.  Start with nuclear and wind for electricity, switch to synthetic oil made from coal.  Then begin to implement the switch to hydrogen to replace natural gas.  By using the natural gas system, you have an infrastructure already in place to transport it, then it could be distributed to gasoline stations for future hydrogen cars, via liquification terminals or compression stations built almost anywhere near a gas line, which are everywhere but the most remote areas. 

Offline blackbear

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 06:08:29 PM »
As I understand it the byproduct of hydrogen engines is water. How does the hydrogen powered vehicle dispose of the water?
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 01:01:48 AM »
If it is fuel cells, the water is just dripped out, kind of like air conditioning condensate.  If it is burned with oxygen in a regular engine, it is just steam out the exhaust. 

Offline blackbear

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 03:15:18 AM »
My thermometer says nine degrees below zero. Moisture quickly turns to ice on roadways during winter months.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 05:40:44 AM »
While that is true water is also a by product of current internal combustion engines and it's never proven to be a problem with them so why worry about it?


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Offline oldandslow

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2008, 05:52:21 AM »
That is true, Greybeard. Exhaust systems, especially duals, used to rust pretty quick but with aluminized pipe that is pretty much a thing of the past. My old '78 GMC with factory duals ate exhaust systems but the last one has been on it about six years now.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 06:00:08 AM »
Graybeard is right.  Natural gas is CH4, when it burns it produces one carbon-dioxide and two water molecules.  Most is released in the air as water vapor or steam because of engine heat.  Water is produced from gasoline and diesel also, just not as much, and more carbon-dioxide with traces of other pollutants (like sulfur-dioxide if sulfur is in the fuel) depending on how clean and pure the fuel is.  Oxygen will bond with almost anything.  With iron, causes rust, with silver, tarnish, with copper, it tarnishes green. 

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 08:47:25 AM »
Graybeard:  I seldom disagree with anything you say, but here I have to.  Water coming out of the tail pipe is one of the worst problems we have in winter driving.  Right now any intersection you come to is coated with a thin layer of ice.  I'll use the intersection of the Richardson highway and Airport Way as an example.  Dry pavement coming into town, then two hundred yards from the intersection the pavement starts to shine.  Those of us that have been here for years know there is ice on the pavement.  New people don't know about this.  When the light turns red, you step on the brakes and slid right through the intersection, or rear end people stopped at the intersection.  All the intersections in Fairbanks is like that from water dropping from the tail pipes.  When a car stops it sits there with water dripping and that water freezes, glazing the pavement.  Then when the light turns green, the cars start and almost all spin a tire just a little, two wheel drives spin a lot, polishing that layer of ice, from all those tail pipes.  Down there in Alabama you don't see this, but up here in the north country it is a bad problem.  Something would have to be done about the water stream coming out of the tail pipe.  Electric motors don't work that good here either, too cold.
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Offline BAGTIC

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2008, 10:36:34 AM »


"Little to no heat transfer to the metal"

Oil life can tripple or more due to no heat to cause the breakdown to start

"There is so much potenial in hydrogen fuel if the government and big oil would just let it happen."



Unfortunately none of this is true.

There is heat and it is transferred to the metal.

A hydrogen flame can cut steel just like an acetylene, propane, or natural gas torch.





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Offline BAGTIC

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2008, 10:43:04 AM »
It is not practical to simply pump hydrogen into existing pipelines. Hydrogen literally seeps through steel and it can also cause it to become brittle. Besides hydrogen is bulkier and the pipelines would transport less energy than they currently do.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2008, 10:55:38 AM »
It is not necessary to live in small, hot, or cold houses. Simply insulate them better as Canadians and Europeans have been doing for years. Use more efficient heating/cooling systems such as geothermal.

We don't have to drive Yugos either. It is possible to make more efficient intermediate and full sized cars using existing technology. Accept the fact that our cars don't need as much horsepower as a WW2 tank and don't need to perform like unlimited dragsters. More passenger cars and pickups could pperform adequately with half their currently installed horsepower.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2008, 03:59:31 PM »
In order to have a strong growing economy, you have to produce more power, produce more fuel, and keep it a the lowest cost possible.  I have not heard one Dem talk about expanding our productivity.  They only talk of using less, conserving, etc. but no real solutions.  GOP only talk of expanding existing oil, gas, and coal reserves.  It will take both.  Americans don't want to live in 60 degree homes, nor 80 degree homes in summer, they want choices.  Americans also want larger vehicles for families and safety.  Ok, so we need to get better mileage with better technology, however, we need to produce our own fuel, not import it. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2008, 06:01:11 PM »
Sourdough I bow to your far greater knowledge of cold weather situation. Hell here in Bama it's cold if it drops to freezing. Temps below zero might have happened once or twice in my life time and temps in the teens are definitely NOT an every year thing.

But I just don't see that it will be any MORE of a problem than it apparently already is if/when we switch to the use of hydrogen. Maybe it will be my point was that there is already a bunch of water coming out so that wouldn't change. Most places it won't be a problem. You guys in super cold areas already have the problem it seems. But will it get worse? Dunno I guess.


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Offline blackbear

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2008, 03:48:34 AM »
Our predicted high for this weekend is 11 degrees below zero.
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Offline magooch

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2008, 04:09:48 AM »
No worries, guys--you're forgetting about global warming.  Algore says we'll all be living in a tropical paradise.  Well, that's not the way he puts it, but he's a pessimist.  Global warming will save me a ton of money, because I won't have to go to Arizona in the winter anymore.
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Offline blackbear

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Re: Hydrogen cars are being tested!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2008, 04:40:43 AM »
No more cutting 12 cords of firewood for the outdoor boiler every Winter ?
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