Author Topic: Swaging brass; .223Rem into .30Carb rimmed, .444Marlin into .460S&W? (Read 2425 times)

Couger · « **on:** June 07, 2009, 01:15:58 AM »

Has anyone here at Graybeard's had experience swaging casings from other [different] parent casings?

Here are two ideas I have.

On another board a poster suggested making .327 Magnum brass from .223 Remington brass, first by resizing down the virgin .223R casings through a .30 Carbine die. Then sizing those down in a .327 die.

The overall goal is to have a round similar in size (in my opinion) to the .30 Carbine or .327 Magnum, both of which can be fired in .308 caliber Handi or Thompson-Center barrels.

At first I was too fixated on the .327 casings, but where I wish brass similar to those could be had in a length longer than the std 1.200in max length, I finally realized a "rimmed .30 Carbine" does two things. The brass would still be only 1.290inches long, but since the slightly-tapered casing base is larger in dia. than the straight-walled .327 case would come close to giving the volume I ultimately want.

Understand I haven't tried this yet, but why couldn't a .30 Carbine single-shot barrel have a .223Rem/.222Rem diameter rim machined into the chamber lip? And then - there it is - da-dah! A "rimmed" .30 Carbine barrel! Comments please? Criticisms?

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Also, is it possible - even pratical or even safe to make LOW PRESSURE .460 S&W casings from .444 Marlin brass?

My goal is to actually have a low to medium performance "460S&W type casing" that's 2inches long or longer to make deer loads with, but in a barrel that's been configured to ALSO shoot 2 1/2inch .410 shotshells.

What's "safe or isn't safe" isn't what I'm asking for here.

Rather what I want to know is is there enough brass to work with in the .444 Marlin casing in making the slightly larger diameter .452 caliber casings? The base ahead of the .444 rim is supposed to be .4706 inches in diameter and .4790 or .4800inches in diameter for the .460S&W (family of straight-walled cartridges).

Also the .444Mar is a slightly tapered casing that sizes down to supporting a .429 cal bullet. The striaght-walled .460S&W (or .454 Casull, or .45 Colt, or .45 Scholfield all) support a .452 caliber bullet.

Looking at the .444Mar brass, it looks thin enough to my inexperienced eyes that it may not be thick enough to neck-up enough to support my idea - to go from a .429 cal bullet to .452 caliber.

Ultimately I want a .452 cal barrel I can shoot .460S&W ammo in, but also a barrel that is chambered and tuned to effectively shoot .410's without messing up their patterns! And YES this barrel would be installed with the same choke-stabilizing device Thompson-Center uses in their .45Colt/.410 barrels to stop the spinning and stabilizes the .410 shot before it leaves the muzzle. To shoot a solid projectile from that rifled barrel that device is removed before hand.

If you've read about this screwy idea to this point, THANKS! But whether or not you would do this project or think shooting a full-house .460-type load made from .444Marlin brass is a good idea, IS IT POSSIBLE TO MAKE STRAIGHT-WALLED BRASS from the .44Marlin to make .460S&W ammo?

If the answer is YES, I would limit my 2 1/4in long .460 deer loads to 255-265grain bullets and 1200-1300-1400 feet-per-second velocity.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post and your input.

Couger · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »

Anyone?

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2009, 09:28:13 AM »

Don't know, 460 brass is available so why? DP

Couger · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2009, 11:09:18 AM »

Why? The reason is my my narrative!

Standard .460 casings are 1.800inches long - not the 2+ inches a .444 casing might give and a better ".410 SG chamber."

Anyone else please? Thanks

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2009, 01:44:58 PM »

Couger

As for a rimmed 30 carb , don't see that one happening without a ton of both work and money ! and as for the other , why not stick with the tried & true = 45/70 .

The wildcat bug has been biting me for years now but there are places that even I am not willing to go due to the time involved or the dollars needed to make it happen .

Just dreaming up a case is only the begining of the battle , next comes the research to make it a safe prospect , thats takes a totaly diffrent understanding of the handloading process .

stimpy

Lead pot · « **Reply #5 on:** June 07, 2009, 02:11:03 PM »

stimpylu32 thought you were goin doggin

jedman · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2009, 03:09:46 PM »

Cougar,
I am going to address the 444 / 460 idea. Most cartridges that have a .470 case head diameter actually measure .464 - .465, I don't have a 444 case to measure but lets say it measures .465 at the case head where there is very little to no expansion. Using a bullet of .452 dia. would leave you with .006 thickness for the case mouth. Thats with zero taper in the 2 plus inches of length, not really worth it for the short case life and effort involved.
My choice would be to use the 7.62 x 54 R case and expand / blow it out to use .452 bullets and you would have a small bit of taper in the casing.
Or like Stimpy said, Use the tried and true 45-70 and be happy with a lot better bullet selection than whats there in .452 dia. Jedman

Couger · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2009, 08:04:14 PM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on June 07, 2009, 01:44:58 PM

Couger, As for a rimmed 30 carb , don't see that one happening without a ton of both work and money! ..... stimpy

Thanks Stimpy. How much "work" is a ton? Not trying to be a PIA here.

Years ago when Remington came out with their annual 700 Classic every year, a good friend acquired one in .350 Rem Mag - and had to make his own .350 brass at that time! As new .350 brass was scarce. He used .300 Winchesters, .300 Weatherlies, 7mm RemMags, etc.

Mike had his best success with new unfired brass, swaging the parent case into a .350 trim die - he then cutting off the excess with a hacksaw. Of course the finer/final trimming and chamferring/deburring was much more exact and picky. He lost only a couple cases and was pleased with his handi-work. He was also/is a very experienced and accomplished reloader.

I understand what I was originally asking about is similar to what my friend had to deal with, but I need only 200-300 rimmed-.30C casings (ultimately). YES, there would be a significant amount of brass to cut off the top of the swaged .30C case, which is okay.

Comsider that a .30 Carbine is .356 inches in diameter ahead of the web, while that same measurement is .376 inches on the .223 (family of cartridges). Of course I'd have to cut and trim 3/8 or so inches off the top of the swaged .30C casings, but is sizing the parent case (virgin .223 brass) down by 20 thousandths of an inch too much? (.376in to .356in?) Especially when that dimension is around the web of the casing?

I suppose if successful a rimmed .30 Carbine casing might have less capacity than a standard .30C, but the rimmed .30 Carbine rounds would be for shooting from a single-shot Encore or Handi-Rifle at low to medium pressures. Powder capacity should NOT be "that" critical I'm thinking for my purposes.

The .30C operates at 40,000 CUP, but my rimmed .30C's would be loaded to about half of that.

Comments please? Stimpy? Thanks!

BTW Stimpy, if you're reading this after a prairie dog quest, hope you had a real blast in more ways than one!

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2009, 08:15:15 PM »

Why not reduce a .223 rimless extractor to fit your H&R .30C barrel and not worry about reworking every case? I know H&R/NEF makes rimless extractors.

Couger · « **Reply #9 on:** June 07, 2009, 08:22:01 PM »

Quote from: Blackhawk44 on June 07, 2009, 08:15:15 PM

Why not reduce a .223 rimless extractor to fit your H&R .30C barrel and not worry about reworking every case? I know H&R/NEF makes rimless extractors.

Thanks for your comment. Okay, this a possibility and not a bad suggestion. But in your scenario whould the new swaged .30C casing still headspace off of the case mouth?

If so, I was hoping to capitalize on the new round having a rim for headspacing instead.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2009, 08:12:59 AM »

With a properly cut chamber, it would headspace on the case mouth and there would be no need to swage a rim onto a case. Also, the extractor would help position the case, even though "officially" it has nothing to do with headspacing. My factory Contender barrel worked just fine. I think that you will find that reducing the heads of .223 brass to this degree will prove impractical as well as near impossible without expensive custom dies and oversized press'.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2009, 08:22:36 AM »

If you do not plan to rely on factory loads at all, chamber for either the .300 Whisper or .30 TCU-.30/.223. You gain commonly available brass, no major forming operations and a small shoulder to help with headspacing.

Couger · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2009, 02:16:30 PM »

Quote from: Blackhawk44

With a properly cut chamber, it would headspace on the case mouth and there would be no need to swage a rim onto a case. Also, the extractor would help position the case, even though "officially" it has nothing to do with headspacing. My factory Contender barrel worked just fine. I think that you will find that reducing the heads of .223 brass to this degree will prove impractical as well as near impossible without expensive custom dies and oversized press'.

What do you call "an over-size press?" How about the Redding 'Ultra Mag' press?

That monster was designed partly with swaging brass or bullets in mind.

Couger · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2009, 02:20:13 PM »

Quote from: Blackhawk44 on June 08, 2009, 08:22:36 AM

If you do not plan to rely on factory loads at all, chamber for either the .300 Whisper or .30 TCU-.30/.223. You gain commonly available brass, no major forming operations and a small shoulder to help with headspacing.

I understand your point and you're correct. This project is to develop an Encore barrel for a specific purpose I wouldn't shoot "a lot of " or every day. Plus it would be fun to see if this can done.

Lead pot · « **Reply #14 on:** June 08, 2009, 06:44:35 PM »

The head on the .444 case is .464, rim diameter is .510, rim thickness is .058

Lp.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 08, 2009, 07:05:09 PM »

Your press will do just fine. Final offer, the .32-20 using a .308 inch bullet. That's about as close to a rimmed .30 carbine as I can come. Thompson Center either has these in stock or available throught the custom shop. Use Starline brass for its extra strength. Best of luck in your endeavors.

Couger · « **Reply #16 on:** June 08, 2009, 09:19:17 PM »

Quote from: Blackhawk44

Your press will do just fine. Final offer, the .32-20 using a .308 inch bullet. That's about as close to a rimmed .30 carbine as I can come. Thompson Center either has these in stock or available throught the custom shop. Use Starline brass for its extra strength. Best of luck in your endeavors.

Thanks BH44!

I shoulda mentioned perhaps that I'm aware of the .32-20. Case length is 1.315" or thereabouts but brass is quite thin. The .30Carb has a case length of 1.29" and the .327 Federal Magnum a case 1.200in long. .32 H&R Mag is shorter than that altho rim diameter and thickness, and web diameter are the same.

Wish I could find something "doable" like 1.4 or 1.5in length .327Mag brass, then I could concentrate on "uniforming" whatever length I chose. I'll look into the Starline brass too.

I picked up a couple McAce .30Carb/.308 chamber adapters but was hoping to have a single-barrel for an Encore that's better than that. The McAce adapters show promise but they are "picky" and accuracy is still too sloppy.

Trying to swage a .223 casing may be a no-go, but I'll keep looking at other casings. I'm not interested in the Whisper.

Something I did in anticipation of having a "reloadable small game round" in 30 cal was I got lucky on eBay and picked up an old Ideal 3118 mold to make .312 cal bullets, that can supposedly be sized to .309cal. Never done it, but have read comments by several who have. Also on eBay picked up an 88grn mold for the .25-20. In .308 cal there's also several 100 or 110grn jacketed or half-jacketed "plinker" bullets available too.

wncchester · « **Reply #17 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:43:03 PM »

Reforming cases with the same head size has long been done. Attempts to change head size is seldom done successfully, not in hand operated reloading presses anyway.

Doubletap · « **Reply #18 on:** June 09, 2009, 05:36:01 PM »

If you're planning on making rimmed brass with a smaller head size, in this case a flanged 30 carbine from .223 brass, you will not only need to resize, but you'd have to make a head swaging die which will swage all the way to the extractor groove. You won't be able to use these in a standard reloading press, they take too much energy, you either use them in a hydraulic set up or with a decent sized vise to push in the case and use a push rod to push them out.
Once you have the heads swaged you'll need to use a lathe to clean up the rim and extractor cut to a uniform diameter. If you have a collet closer for your lathe it's a relatively quick task.
I've used this to make 7.62X39 from '06 back 30 years ago and also use the head swaging dies to make things like 9.3X74R from '06 or 405 WCF from '06, though you will also need to use a ring die and a hydraulic set up to lengthen the parent brass to convert to the X74 or 405 WCF, but I use them to make the point, that yes it can be done, but it's a bit more complicated than you are thinking.
If I were you and wanted a .327 Handy, I'd make one up with a standard reamer, if you need to form brass use the .223 but add a .223 extractor to your Handy and make the brass rimless, much easier to do. If you cut the chamber correctly you'll head space on the case mouth. I've done the same making .444 "rimless" brass from '06 (or any 57 mm brass), just pay attention to your chamber length for YOUR rifle and trim brass accordingly. Works fine, and ejected and extracted just fine with full power loads in a Marlin lever.

Couger · « **Reply #19 on:** June 10, 2009, 09:34:32 PM »

Thank you DoubleTap, BlackHawk44 and everyone else ......

Thak you all for your posts.

What I am or was proposing I probably won't do now. Doubletap's post along with BlackHawk's make good sense I just will not have the proper equipment to attempt this project I was postulating.

Sticking with .32-20 brass and .30 Carbine brass (very carefully trimmed to ensure proper headspacing) is really the sensible thing to pursue. I like the looks of the .327 Magnum casing, but won't use it since its shorter (1.200in COL) than the .30C (1.290in COL) or .32-20 (1.315inches COL) - all SAAMI specs.

Purpose was to develop a small reloadable .30 cal small game cartridge, using 100-120grn bullets at .22 velocities. This has been done by folks shooting the .32-20 and .30C.

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As for the .444 project, still looking at that one!

Doubletap · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2009, 03:10:06 PM »

Not that it is really within the parameters of your initial post, but wouldn't it be rather neat to have a Handy relined with a 30 calibre barrel and chambered for the 7.63X25 Tokarev? Great ballistics, cheap mil-surp ammo that's still very reasonable in cost, and reloadable brass from Midway. If you use a 1-12" twist for the liner you should be able to use cast slugs to about 150 gr. yet still toss lighter cast slugs out at 1000 to 1200 fps with just a pinch of pistol powder powder. Full power stuff should push the Sierra 86 gr. out at 1800 fps or better if need be, but the real beauty would be cast slugs at about sonic velocities for small game and varmint elimination. Anyway, just another thought for making a neat small game rifle.