The Judge, 45 Colt - .410 shotgun

[LarryL]

Has anyone seen or tried out the Taurus model 410 pistol in 45 colt/.410 shotgun?  It seems like that would make a wicked home defense handgun.  Load it half and half with 45 colt hollow points, and .410 shotshells loaded with #4 buck or maybe even BB shot.  A load of BBs at across the room distance would seem to take the fight out of someone real fast!

[Savage]

I think this article will answer your questions.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
 
In my opinion it would be a fun gun to play with, and effective on snakes out to 10-15 feet, with the .410 loads. At the same time it's a poor choice for a home defense weapon, and too big to carry concealed, although carried on the belt, it would be formidable loaded with good .45 ammo.
Savage

[stuffit]

That "box of truth" write up was good as far as it went.   The range (10 yds, I seem to recall) was a little excessive, I think for practical use of shot loads and it didn't address any reloads at all.  With the 2 1/2" brass .410 shells and .45 Colt reloads, the possibilities are almost infinite.  I've had a Judge since Christmas of this year and have been favorably impressed.   The cylinder throats are a bit lengthy and measure 0.460".  However, with one .45 Colt reload I tried, the 25 yd accuracy surprised me.  I'm not at all sure why but I'm sure glad of it.
 
stuffit

[Savage]

I think the "Judge" would be a fun gun to play with! Just doesn't seem very effective with anything you could stuff in a shotshell beyond 20-30 feet. Could work ok as a close range survival gun to put food on the table. I can visualize having fun shooting hand thrown clays with a load of #12 shot!  It seems to be much more useful as a pistol firing the .45 tho.
Savage

[LarryL]

I still wonder about a load of BBs or #4 buck at across the room distance.  For me, I'd rather have my SIG 228 or my 1911. 

But, for my wife, a simple double action 5 shot revolver with 5 loads of #4 buck would be a heck of a deterrent for anyone coming into the bedroom!!

[coyotejoe]

Rumor has it that Taurus is bringing out a version for 3" shells which should be more effective than the current 2 1/2"  shell and offer a much greater variety of loads. If they would then add a choke tube to the 6" barrel it might actually be useful for small game. I've seen very effective .410 patterns from the Comanche single shots which would be deadly to 25 yards or so on grouse or rabbits and a five shot double action revolver would be a hoot if it could be made to pattern #7 1/2 shot as well as the Comanche. As is, with 2 1/2" shells and no choke I think it is just a "snake-gun/toy", not of much real use. For personal defense there is surely nothing wrong with the .45 Colt. Even though the accuracy may be nothing to brag about it would be better than a "highly excited" person is likely to shoot in a genuine life and death situation.

[Devy55]

A weapon is just like any other tool.  There are conditions for which some tools are better suited, than others.  I think the choice of the Judge for home defense, depends upon what other weapons you already have at your disposal.

This will be difficult to explain, but In my honest opinion, the Judge is not really optimized as a home defense weapon.

The advantage of the Judge is that is gives you a versatile .410, in a small, transportable and concealable handgun.  Obviously, the .45 is already available has a handgun, so you haven't gained anything from this configuration, other than the versatility of using one gun to fire both calibers.  Hence, the primary benefit gained from the handgun is the .410.

Based upon the weapon's configuration, the Judge is best suited for those situations where you require concealment, holstered transportability, or operations in confined areas which restrict weapon size.  Hence, hidden carry on your person, or when firing from within your car, etc.

However, under most conditions, these requirements do not exist inside your home.  Therefore, if you already have a potent handgun in your arsenal, the Judge's .45 doesn't give you an advantage that you don't already have.   

If you want to shoot the .410 for home defense (so you don't tear up your house with a 12 ga), then you could just purchase a short barreled shotgun which will provide better accuracy and allow you to add an accessory flashlight, laser sight, etc.

In your home, you don't care about concealment and holstered carry, so if you want to use a shotgun, a short 18" barrelled shotgun will still give you plenty of mobility to maneuver from room to room.   In fact, Mossberg makes the model HS410 specifically for home defense (the "HS" stands for "Home Security") and is well worth considering.

My point is to examine the weapons available to you, and tailor your arsenal to suit the conditions in which you will operate.  If your arsenal is limited, then the versatility of the Judge can be an advantage.  If you already have other suitable weapons at your disposal, then another choice may better fullfill that niche.

Just food for thought.

Hope this helps.

[LarryL]

Devy,

Complete agreement with everything you said.  For me, I have my SIG 228 with 115+P Corbons and my 1911 with Hydrashocks both locked in a gun vault in the bedroom along with a Wolfeyes Defender flashlight.  The SIG has a tritium front sight where as the 1911 has std sights, but I'm comfortable with either one in a home defense situation.  I shoot fairly often at the range, both target and defensive drills.  I also handgun hunt and reload. I would not consider myself an expert shooter by any means, but I will do what is necessary to defend my family without hesitation.

My wife is reasonably comfortable shooting my SIG, but she is not into guns and rarely ever goes to the range with me.  It has been several years since she last fired one.  We have kids, so the long guns stay locked up in the gun safe.  While my model 37 Ithaca loaded with buckshot or Brenneky slugs would bring a world of hurt to anyone bent on harming us, she is strongly opposed to having a loaded shotgun sitting around.  The SIG is simple enough in operation, and really no different than a revolver.  I just wish she would practice more.  I doubt she will be able to shoot accurately under stress.  That's why I wondered about the Judge with BBs or #4 buck.  That might have a bit more spread at across the room distance to improve her hit percentages.  In most cases, once a guy gets shot, even non-lethal, he is likely headed for a quick exit.  He isn't likely to stick around and have a shootout with the homeowner unless is exit is blocked.  If she hits him with a face or chest with a load of #4 buck on the first shot, he is likely going to be running and feeling some serious pain.  If she fires and misses with the SIG, he might still be tempted to stick around and shoot back.  I realize shot placement is key, but given the situation of someone who is not a very good shot and does not want to practice, I'm trying to find the best option amongst less than optimal choices.

3" chambers would certainly increase the pellet load size.  Doing a bit of looking has revealed that there really is not much out there for .410 ammo these days.  Slugs are worthless as they are puny compared to 45 Colt loads.  The only buckshot loads seem to be 000 with 5 pellets in the 3" loads.  The next step up is Winchester Super-X High Brass that has a 3/4 oz load of #4 shot in a 3" load.  That could be pretty messy on someone, but I'd sure prefer about 20 #4 buck pellets.  I suppose one could always handload.  Probably could come up with better powder for better velocity in the short barrel too.

I know, I know, drag her butt to the range and make her practice more.  Very tough to do.  Some people just want to live in condition white and assume bad things will happen to other people.  Hell, we just had a home invasion a month or so ago about 10 houses down the road.  Mind you that's the first such incident I am aware of since we moved into this neighborhood 13 years ago, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen again tomorrow.

I suppose I could pay the transfer fees and get her an HK subgun...

Just kidding!!!  It would take me weeks to fix all the holes in the plaster!!

[Devy55]

Larry,

Well said. 

I didn't know about the situation with the wife.  If she is gun shy, the felt recoil on the Mossberg HS410 will be very gentle and much more controllable than from a handgun. 

But, like you said, if she doesn't want an unlocked shotgun hanging around, and you don't have a gun safe/cabinet nearby, then your options are limited. 

Firearms safety, storage, and rapid retrieval in an emergency imposes some unique conditions that many people with kids, or grandkids, have to contend with.  For me, my wife prefers that I keep my guns locked up, in case the grandkids come by unexpectedly (even though I'll sometimes have one in a drawer at night).  We both have our CCW and she's not afraid of guns, but doesn't want to risk an accident with the children, which I can appreciate.

However, my first line of defense is a home security system, which is always activated.  If there is an intrusion, the alarm goes off immediately.  Hopefully, the intruder will run off, but if not, I'm unlocking my gun cabinet and grabbing my loaded Beretta PX4 .40 S&W, and/or my Taurus .44 SPL and .357.   My 2 shotguns are semi-autos, so I'm looking into a tactical pump in .410 or 20 ga, to use as my preferred home defense weapon.  Haven't got it yet, but still looking.

Anyway, Good luck.  Let us know how things work out.

Devy55

[45LCshoooter]

Hmmm, I seem to remember reading (years ago) about a wall mounted (preferably in the closet) gun lock that shrouds the receiver/trigger guard. It prevents unauthorized handling but is perhaps quicker than getting it out of the gunsafe...who knows? I vote for the 20 ga. but wonder about the pump. Are you really concerned enough over reliability of a semi-auto to risk your wife (who may not shoot the shotgun much) short-stroking a pump?

I am very pleased with our Remington LT-20 though i do recommend keeping an extra o-ring or two on hand... but i doubt it will be anything that would catch you by surprise. I have a side saddle on mine and keep it with the bolt open and 1 round of #6 in the saddle brass up and three rounds of buck brass down. This takes some practice, but it is pretty easy: i hold shotgun by the forearm with the left hand and with my right hand i remove the one round of #6 and drop it in the ejection port, i slide my fingers down the right side of the receiver and press the gate with my middle finger which closes the bolt. It is a very short distance to grip the pistol grip with my right hand and i can fire or top off the mag with the weak hand. Some will decry having the springs compressed for so long but they are coil springs and are not as susceptible to fatigue and can be periodically replaced.

As far as handguns go, I am not too fond of .410 in a shotgun, i would have to question effectiveness from a handgun barrel. I favor service-sized handguns for the house or car as the extra weight helps control recoil. The only advantage any revolver has over your SIG is the fact that a light grip jams autos. If she shoots it much at all, she grips it firmly already and shooting a revolver may actually train that out of her. If you have a rail on your SIG, i would suggest a light and look for a way to make shooting fun for her so she will practice.

I would put a light on the shotgun if you get one for the house as well. While i don't have one on the LT-20 yet, I love the one on my Mossberg 590.