The Battle of San Juan Hill.

[phalanx]

In reading up on this trying to find what Cannon was used ,I found out that Roosevelt's men came up on 450 guns ,either mounted in the fort or defending the hill.
You always hear about the American mistake of arming some of her troops with the trap door Springfield rifle ,going up against the Spanish using the new 7x57 bolt action Mousers.
Although suffering major casualty's ,The Rough Riders still took the hill .
The Spanish may have had the Mouser rifle ,but the Americans had the Hotchkiss .
It was capable of aerial burst , Fragmentation and concussion explosive rounds, and was a breech loader.
Older Parrot ,and Ordnance rifles behind the Hotchkiss pounded the forts walls , and the defenders inside grew terrified by the  distinctive sound the Hotchkiss made ,as sure death followed.
I cant find anything as to what the 450 cannon of the Spanish were , But the American guns ,though out numbered ,fired faster ,and more accurate than that of the Defenders ,clearing the way for Roosevelt and his men to advance on the Spanish.
So it seems where the guys in charge of arming the infantry ,messed up ,and the guys in charge of the Artillery ,saved the day!
Its neat reading ,there are a lot of sites on this Battle.

[cannonmn]

It was capable of aerial burst ,

If you mean the Hotchkiss 2-pounder mountain gun, the ammo issued was either canister or impact-fuzed, as far as I know.  Could it be a different weapon the site is referring to?

The Sims-Dudley 2.5-inch dynamite gun was used there, as I recall reading.  There's been a lot written about the sound the detonation made, which was unusual and drew the Spanish troops out where U.S. rifle or Gatling gun bullets got them.

[phalanx]

It didn't mention that , But it did mention the Gatling guns .
Only about a sound that frightened the Spanish to where they would run before it went off from one of the American guns ,or away from where it had gone off.
The Hotchkiss was light ,maneuverable ,and fast ,is what it said ,and used Ammunition the Spanish had never encountered ,nor were expecting.

Let me post the link ,its about 30 pages long.
I didn't know the Hotchkiss was even in that battle , I knew the Parrots were ,and they could do aerial burst.

[cannonmn]

This not mine although I wish like He__ it was.  It is in the N.E. US and that's all I can say about it.  See what you can determine from the pictures without me typing in a lot of BS.  The tube is over 5 feet long.

[KABAR2]

The "rough Riders" were armed with the following, enlisted Krag carbines, Officers M1895 Winchester carbines in 30-40 Krag, they also had two privately purchased Colt M1895 Potatodiggers, a 45 Gatling gun was attached to them also,
Hocthkiss  2pndrs and at least one dynamite gun was used in the battle most inlisted also had M1872 colt single actions, while Teddy carried a Navy 38 long colt recovered off the USS Main, which had been sent to him by his brother, this gun was stolen
in the 1990's from Roosevelt's Sagamore hill home, I believe it was recovered last year from a man living in Florida. Here's a few links on the subject.



 http://www.spanamwar.com/


http://www.spanamwar.com/linkx.htm

[phalanx]

Yes they did have the krags ,but not all of them , read the part about the buffalo soldiers at San Juan.
I went to the web before posting this, they suffered greatly.
Go to yahoo ,Guns used at the battle ,and how the Spanish had 450 guns on the hill.
Trust me Allen i am not going to post something on here from a book or from the History channel without looking on a search engine first ,knowing someone is going to look into it.
The account was written by  Loyd Peterson with the Petersburg Gazette ,it was written mostly sounding political.
Cannonmn ,thanks for the photos ,i couldn't find anything on these 450 guns.
If you go to one of the tourist sites connected to this ,it shows a Parrot sitting at the bottom of a flag pole.
Strange for a place we cant even go to ,but it looks well kept.
P.S. out of the 15000 troops engaged in the battle ,2000 were black ,200 men died ,and out of that 30 were black.
The blacks saw some of the fiercest combat of the day.
Articles in news papers came up later about ,how TR stole the spotlight , and how the blacks were ill equipped ,and out gunned using rifles nearly 30 years old.
cannonmn ,you are right the air burst could not have come from this gun ,but a 3 in was made ,but no mention of it at the battle.
http://www.spanamwar.com/hotchkis165.htm
Read the links and they say it was the larger guns in the rear.

[seacoastartillery]

     Please don't forget about this one, the  3.2 Inch Rifle, Model 1890.  Started life as the Model 1885, improvements made gradually until the Model 1890 came out.  While still a 'bag' gun, this had the new steel carriage featured in these photos, improved obturator, improved rifling and sights and an improved breech configuration which reduced weight and the no. of parts necessary.  Accuracy was very good and the only major drawback was the puff of white smoke signaling a 13.5 lb. shell was on the way.  Carriage production was shifted from Springfield Arsenal to a goverment plant in Rhode Island in 1892 and the tubes were made by Waterveliet Arsenal, located across the Hudson River from Troy, NY, the home of "Uncle Sam".  Mike and I spotted this beauty when we visited Rock Island Arsenal last year.

     This type of gun was used to good effect by American forces in Cuba and also in the Philippines.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[cannonmn]

Yes the NPS FAQ site verifies the 450 gun figure, here:  http://www.nps.gov/saju/faqs.htm

I spent some time trying to find Mr. P's reference to a pic of a Parrott gun, and could not.  I'd respectfully suggest if a point becomes contentious, or if we want to "show" someone a picture or whatever, simply copy the URL at the top of the browser for that particular page, and paste it here in the discussion.  I went to the links posted by Mr. P., but could not chase all the sub-links down to find what he was discussing.  I tried for a while though!

I'd like to see that Parrott but can't find it.  I could certainly be wrong, but as far as I know, all of the US muzzle-loading rifles such as the Ordnance Rifle, and Parrotts, were obsolete many years before the Span-Am War, and would not have made the trip to those battlefields.  I don't doubt that there's a Parrott on display, but it is probably there either because it was available when they built the monument, or something.

[KABAR2]

The Spanish American war in many ways was an oddity.
they had veterans of both the Civil War(including a confederate general) and Indian Wars fighting among the volunteers it could be the term Parrot may be a generic term for a field piece, the same way a veteran might say "I fired my Springfield" depending on the era which model did he mean?

Phalanx my post mainly covered what the 1st U.S. volunteers(Rough Riders) carried, I did not touch upon other troops.you mention the fact that the trapdoor which had become obsolete, but this was not a one sided affair, the Spanish troops were not exclusively armed with 7mm Mauser's, there were also large quantities of black powder 11MM Remington rolling blocks used, this was a transitional war for both sides, obsolete black powder arms, modern smokeless arms, Gatling guns Potato Diggers and Nordenfeld volley guns,Maxims, both breech loading and muzzle loading artillery used.

Buy now most of us know not to rely on news paper accounts for truth, they were the same then as they are now, one sided and full of inaccuracy's. and in our P.C. world history is retold not for the retelling but to find some sort of blame or uncaring of whites towards  blacks, The black solders were still issued the trapdoor Springfield, the N.Y. National Guard units that fought that day were issued the same rifle. They went with what they had. The black troops were well led by a lieutenant by the name Perishing (as in Blackjack) and acquitted themselves well on the field.

This was a war that should never had been, fought for no good reason, our troops were ill equipped to deal with the Tropical conditions in Cuba, and suffered greatly not only there but also at a camp set up for their return to the U.S. on the east end of Long Island in the middle of nowhere.

[phalanx]

Sorry Cannonmn ,the  one site in the search engine i went to brought up a great story about San Juan Cuba and the battle.
At the bottom in small print it listed other sites of interest.
The photos were from San Juan Puerto Rico and one from San Juan California.
The story above said nothing about the other two places ,and if you didn't scroll down far enough you didnt see the little caption at the bottom ,just the Photos mixed in with the ones from Cuba. My fault,I don't know why those would be mixed in like that .
The search engine had numerous accounts of the battle ,and sometimes had stories marked the Battle of San Juan ,but then went into the Mexican American war,in relation to Artillery.
One account has the older guns already being on the island ,and were bought by Spain ,then used against them.
Gotta get the kids to school when i get to the office i will find that and post the link for you ,all the links,and perhaps we can sort it all out together.
Its a confusing name ,San Juan ,it seems it can go all over the map in several other conflicts.

[seacoastartillery]

     Whaaaaaaa! Waaa!   You guys are ignoring my 3.2 Inch rifles.  I hope you are not implying that they were in the "rear with the gear"!  How about infantry support?  Long range counter-battery fire?  Something had to knock out some of those nasty Krupp guns!  After all, not every area could be covered by the USS Vesuvius and her monstrous 15 Inch,  pneumatic powered,  Dynamite Guns!!

Great thread,

Tracy and Mike

[KABAR2]

Sorry Seacoast No you are right, more than likely that type of gun did play a roll in Cuba, It is also possible that the 3" Hotchkiss played there too, as the US had purchased some of these, I know of another 3.2" rifle out in a traffic circle on Long Island, it was rusting away, and in terrible shape the weels were falling apart, a friend of mine made new oak wheels and the carraige was rebuilt. it went back to standing duty back in the traffic circle. and still should be there. It is nice to see the photos of the one you saw as it appears to be still functional.

[phalanx]

Thank you Tracy and Mike, I just like to read about this subject.
There is soooo much stuff about this ,it goes from one end to the other .
Like Allen said ,this was the first Combat this country really had seen against a real Uniformed Army ,sense the CW.
The writing's of the Big guns were from a Black man who was a Vet. of Fort Wagner NC.
He was a Sargent at this Battle ,and he said his charge was meet by bullets that sounded like an angry bee.
I was going to say something about the strange guns seen that day ,and the burst that would take out an entire emplacement ,but all i really read about was the Hotchkiss, about 150 sites ,read them ,you will get the run around.
I was brought up thinking the trap door was all these men had ,i was wrong ,I was also told the older guns were what pounded the fort ,I may be wrong,it may be what Sea Coast said it might have been.
But this has become an Educational experience for us all ,Potato diggers ?you ever fired one of those ?
Sargent Lewis,a black man ,said he thought the Aerial burst from the guns were Parrots,he had seen Parrots on the island ,and he had never seen aerial burst that accurate.
As with Fort Wagner ,the Black infantry went in first ,cannon fodder you might say ,testing what the enemy had.
Thus the accounts of the American slaughter in 15 minutes, Guys lets just try to put together the pieces ,Allen is right ,Cannonmn is right ,we are all right.
Sea Coast has identified the guns ,To a Black veteran of Fort Wagner ,a 3.2 Hotchkiss would look like a Parrot on steroids.
But Aerial did happen, not some TNT launcher ,and after the slaughter of 30 Black troops in 15 min. ? the press went wild.
Big guns were at that Battle ,only an idiot would attack a fort with 450 guns ,with a 2 Pound cannon.
What really happened ? TR ,was a villain to some ,a Hero to others ,and Allen i have learned a lot from  your post.
Cannonmn ,yours also ,you showed what the Spanish had ,which was all i really wanted to know.
Please don't think i make stuff up in my head,i only went to the first wave of engagement.
Being the Black troops.
This was what made the initial headlines,Sea Coast is right ,something big was there,it had to be.
I dug and dug ,letters ,accounts by the Black NCOs.
I will stand down on my assumption of it being the older guns ,It was only what i was taught ,and what Sargent Lewis thought it was.
But TNT didn't level the NE gun tower of the fort ,that had stood for years.

[phalanx]

Springfield rifles VS the Mouser at the Battle .
http://candamo.iespana.es/candamo/1898/ingles/itierra3.htm

[phalanx]

Sea Coast, i have been up a long time on this , as far as Artillery it is the Hotchkiss,big time.Light and heavy ,some elements of the Cuban resistance used the older American guns.
But when they talk about ,light and heavy ,Hotchkiss is the name ,and the heavy firing of an air burst ,it has to be your gun.
All the emphasis is on TR ,and what a hero he was,now i think less.
I found a lot on the 2 pounder,but the heavy guns were refereed to as the Hotchkiss,leaving only your 3.2,capable of doing an air burst ,in what was well documented,and not a dynamite tosser.
Men who fired these guns thought of them as a breech loading Parrot rifle ,which was used in the later part of the 18th century.
I found one account of a man who loaded a 3.2 at the Battle ,but it was in 30 pages of other crap ,and was only a sentence.
Thanks for your info ,But by no way did these men defeat a fort on a hill ,surrounded by 450 guns ,with a few 2 pound cannon.
NO way ,i Graduated from The Naval war collage , The new stuff , but still No way.
Being attached to the Marines ,i learned more field ,still the same,2 pounds ? no way.

[cannonmn]

3.2's and dynamite gun in Cuba during the "splendid little war."

[phalanx]

Its been an interesting topic .
I have learned a lot from the members on this site ,things i had always been told even in collage were false,other things were true.
Thank you cannonmn ,Heavy guns had to be present ,to many accounts of it ,but no real description.
To much talk about the Aerial burst.Sea Coast was right.
This is how i hope we are a team, we find a subject and at the end we know more about it than a Collage.
We all hear ,or read, so we post ,then after that others modify that post as to what really happened.
Its to easy to look something up,as to just making something up ,you will get busted ,but on this thread all the info sites contradicted themselves ,so it all went back and forth.
OK ,we established the small arms used as a half truth,it depended who you were ,and the heavy guns as a truth,just needed to get the models right.
A friend PMed me and told me Fort Wagner was in SC,He is right.
The Black veteran of the Battle of Fort Wagner was stated as just that,it didn't mention a State.
I put in NC only from a movie i saw ,and thought that was it before looking it up,all i remembered was the name of the fort.
No one here is blowing smoke,We all have been told different things ,and read different things.
This is what makes this the best Cannon site on the web ,Discussion.

[KABAR2]

On the subject of air bursts besides the impact fuse,the army did use what was called a common shell that had a fuse adapter which would hold the paper timed fuse, with that you could get air bursts.these continued to be used up into WW I! I'll photograph and post one of these tomorrow.