oldest Cannon ,lets not get excited OK

[phalanx]

Kabar2 told me not to post this just yet .
In my younger years i did some Roman re-enacting ,Mostly around Albany Texas .
In this we had a news letter that recounted that a Tribune from the Eastern Empire in 385 AD brought back a tube made of Bronze that was used as a weapon against his Legion.
The XX banner ,the sign of the Bull ,came across some Mongols ,using this ,and they hit his front line with rocks ,with fire.
Bringing it back to Rome ,Theodosius 1, asked his Generals if it had any significance.
They said no ,the Mongols used it and ran.
Remember this was only a crude tube ,no carriage ,from most likely China ,and it was more of a big thunder mug than anything else.
Actual Cannon didn't show up against Rome ,until they were the Byzantine empire nearly 800 years later.
Interesting ,and i am looking it up in the Septis Vacura ,From the John Hopkins University .
But the text is in Latin and i am trying to find it.
But the people writing history back then were Romans and it is hard.
But i did find the use of Black powder as far back as 250 AD.

[phalanx]

I do have this ,Vactus  Thera II ,was the Tribune ,re-assigned to the east after 5 years in Britannia.
His family having fallen from grace, brought many spoils ,Silk ,a strange paper parchment with an unknown writing, gold ,and this strange device used against his Army.
He also showed how a slave running on a treadmill ,turning a glass rod covered in silk caused sparks.
tight animal skins not far away would vibrate when the sparks went out,,,crude Radio ,capacitance.

[KABAR2]

What I said was have your research backed up by the original source documentation ie what book or manuscript translation had this info,
if so this would put the use of cannon back further in history than we think.
accurate historical references would greatly help.   

[cannonmn]

He also showed how a slave running on a treadmill ,turning a glass rod covered in silk caused sparks.

No no ya got it all wrong, the guy who did that was Roman senator Benjamus Franklinus. (note 1)




1.  Moose, Bullwinkle P., "The Great Book of Fractured Fairy Tales", Bovine Publishers, Frostbite Falls MN, 1967, pp, 3.

[phalanx]

NO ,you got it wrong.
Franklin never set out to discover electricity ,he only wanted to prove its properties ,and that it can be controlled or harnessed ....He recreated a scenario with his tread mill ,that even the Egyptians had done,and he had studied.
Static had been noticed for a long time before old Ben don't you think ?

What i told you was only one account of something a lot of people knew about ,and how to produce.
Sort of like powder ,it was everywhere then ,you just had to know what to do with it.
Man we knew about the wheel long before someone did something good with it.
Mongols were not a friend to China or Rome , ( the Robin Hood of their time ) can we not say an account of this isn't correct ,or false .
But this was the  Roman Senate ?
And this thing wasn't a beauty on a carriage ,it was a crude tube full of rocks.
Now can we discuss ,or do you want to tell me about the Bull winkle ,thing ,what ever,something ?
I have never heard of it ,seems you know a lot about that subject ,please come share that one with us.

[Terry C.]

Uh, it was a joke. Humor. Not to be taken seriously.

[phalanx]

I know ,that is why i said it.
I haven't been here Long ,I don't know you guys yet , but cannonmn it was funny.
I am not a bad guy ,i just like this subject and as friends i like to talk.
That is why i said lets not get excited ,lets check this out .
It is a cool story and it would be fun to find out all about it.
You guys know your stuff ,,, i just go to the library and read a lot. old stuff ,i was right about the big guns.
Wrong about the model ,but they were there ,it made you search didn't it.
And in the end we even knew what the web didn't say ,the make and model , now that's a forum.
I didn't know we could joke here , I haven't seen a lot of it, mostly very professional and to the point.

[Terry C.]

I joke around. Sometimes too much and I'm not always sure if the other person gets it.

I tend to emphasize the fun side of the hobby. Without humor now and then it's all just facts and figures.

[lance]

 phalanx, people joke here, but it helps if they use the "faces".......... like if i was wanting to make a joke about the "worlds oldest cannon" that would be the old cave painting showing the Woolly mammoth with a rock stuffed down his trunk and a caveman hitting the mammoth in the "privates" with a club .............see now thats a joke!  Now if you don't hate me.......Concerning the Roman re-enacting you did. i've been wanting to build some small models of Roman Artillery. Got any pics or plans you can send me? or the best book recommendation.

[phalanx]

Oh ,Lance i have tons of photos ,I have a Greek drawing of the tube that was found , it looks like a crude piece of pipe to me ,but still.
A Little more work and hay ,look what we have . The Nazis had all the makings of an inter Continental missile in 1942 ,That U boat Surrendered with a large amount of Uranium.
A little time ,knowledge ,and good by London for real.
What of Ballista do you want to see ? Ampurias ,the steel ,cheiroballista ,or the smaller omager.
The ones with the bolts and arrows were ,cremona ,and scorpion.

Under Constantine ,the ones at about 950 ad in the east were using bolts in the, Purus,launched by our old friend for sure BP ,but this didn't work to well.
Attempts to produce Greek fire only met in failure believing the new powder was part of the mix ,it wasn't.
But hay ,i saw a reproduction of the French ,Trebuchet , Throw an old refrigerator 200 yards .
Now that thing was dangerous.

[cannonmn]

Phalanx I think your ideas about the veteran's stories were great.  I was in the Library of Congress yesterday and walking though the Madison building, walked past the office named "Veteran's History Project."  They were closed but I got the phone number from a sign on the door, 202-707-4916.  I think if you get in touch with them, they'd tell you how to get the vet's story "into the system" so the interview would be part of their project, and made available to everyone later.  They probably have something on the web and I'll put a link here if I can find it.  No joke this time.  By the way, I see the little emoticon faces  everywere but just don't like 'em much myself. 

[cannonmn]

Link to Vet's History Project, registration, how to get "field kit" to do it locally:

http://www.loc.gov/vets/kit.html

[lance]

 phalanx, looks like i found the right person to talk with. i've never heard all those different names before, all i know is Ballista. the only one i've ever seen being used was on History International Channel. it was a 3 min. clip and they were using stones for ammo. it didn't have wheels, it stood upright and looked like a big crossbow. i do believe i could build a decent size model of one if i had enough pics to look at. i mainly want one to demo different ages of artillery, plus i like to tinker in my spare time.

[phalanx]

Lance the ones i shot used rope ,for some reason the rope retained the energy better than anything else.
It was a cremona , it launched a 40 pound bolt with a steel blunt head ,with enough energy to knock down a brick wall.
And that was at about 300 yards.
Crude but effective ,and a stone ax can kill you.

I am the one in the back back ,bad place to be ,sorry this is a 35mm.
Me .
I can post other pics of ancient Artillery ,if you like .
The Cats were very big ,they could launch 150 pounds over 400 yards .
The Cremona would shoot a bolt so fast you couldn't see it until it hit.

[phalanx]

Lance ,wow someone ask ,the Cremona was the most popular ,sort of like your light Artillery.
Easy to move ,hard hitting.
The big Cats were the heavy stuff ,i never got around to many of them but i have some pics.
Biological warfare ,Launch the body of a Leper into a fort and watch them run.
Some mixtures of Greek fire were used ,but not as good as the real thing.
Still it was like an Air Strike ,Napalm.
I have the plans ,and i have the places where a little hardware from Home Depot makes them even better .

[phalanx]

My Cohort ,me on guard ,always on guard
The Artillery was always more fun ,This part was what the H$$L am i doing here.

[lance]

phalanx, you sure have led a life full of interesting experiences!!! the only Ballista i got to see in action was on t.v., you got to shoot the real thing, i'm jealous. i was trying to look up some of the names you gave me, and forgot all about them, when i found some model kits. one is big enough for golf balls, so that will serve my purpose of being able to demo very old artillery. this has been a neat topic, "oldest cannon" ain't getting much talk, are you still doing research on it?

[phalanx]

Yes ,but going to a library to do it.
It seems the web only gets me in trouble because everyone jumps right on that .
It isn't the only source for info .
Only those making a web page ,and being taken, per bate um.
No Lance i haven't had an exciting life ,i just didn't get Married or have kids until i was in my late 30s.
Out of the Military ,then Collage i made real good money ,the 80s ,i bought black rifles ,and would trade them in a couple of weeks later.I dated ,i Honky Tonked ,smoked pot and hung out with Indians .
I was contracted out to Motorola ,by ONAN /Mc Craw  Edison ,not Cummins ,after the wall fell to help the telecommunications in Russia get up to snuff.
I worked for Caterpillar ,Lima,Woodward ,and have been contracted out to a lot of them i am sure you wouldn't believe,but i was young and not tied down then.
I have found another account from a book by ,Ester Francure ,The Battle of the Mongols on western culture  ,I am going to scan this stuff ,post the author and book ,then let you guys look it up.
The names i gave are actual Roman Ballista ,I haven't seen all of them ,but i have fired some ,and their power will surprise you .

I was really surprised to see rope used as the spring device ,wrapped around a cam that was very strong.
I guess a little tube that threw rocks did seem like a waist of time.
I guess the closest i can think of to a Mortar would be the shoulder fired Cremona ,it was held by two men and launched a 20 pound bolt .
I have a photo of it if you would like to see it.

[phalanx]

OK : invite .
Legio XIIII is meeting on February 23rd in Tyler Texas for re-enactment exercises .
All participants must be in full field Armor and era weaponry .
Seeing how this is an exercise ,Legion banners do not need to be changed ,or dress associated to your Legion.
Officers report at 12:30 PM on the 22nd ,Artillery at 2:00 pm.
Various units and cohort assemble at 7:00 AM on the 23rd.
Spectators will be allowed in at 10:00 AM , it is at the old Russal ranch ,email for directions.
Here is your Chance Lance .
Emailed to me by a friend that is going ,the wife said ,great ,i get to watch you get your butt kicked again by some big guy from Dallas.

[lance]

phalanx, i'm a weapons junkie, so if you got a photo, yes i'd like to see it. Double D might "bust" us, but i'm thinking it kinda fits in with the "oldest cannon" topic. if one side had cannons in a battle, and the other side had old style artillery, i wouldn't know what the artillery looked liked without the pic. i'll look at your research when you post it, but i'm telling you now, i'm not even close to being an expert on this topic. the invite sounds fun,wish it was closer, with work and winter time farm chores, no way i could get away. maybe if you take one of your full size cannons, you're butt might not get kicked!

[phalanx]

lance it is still Artillery ,Go ahead and wrong me because this i don't know.
The word i think is French ,the Latin is ,Artillaria ,or Canon ,,statute ,or LAW.
So it still fits.
I am like you i wish i could go ,i have never meet the XIIII ,they are mostly from Kentucky.
Allen knows the story of my Butt kicking ,i wasn't the mighty Legionary of the Legio V i thought i was.
It was a Battle against the Germanic tribes ,our Artie pounded the tree line for two hours.
All fake of course but it looked good.
We marched in , in lock step ,shields locked thinking we had taken the field.
About this time these Sasquatch ,Cave man looking dudes came out of no where and started to smash the &@xx&& out of us.
One split my shield down the middle with a sword from H$$L ,then proceeded to beat my A&& in the name of Caesar.
CAVE MAN ,no kidding ,Knocked my pretty gold Eagles right off my shoulders.
My Brave comrades ran ,then with a bloody nose ,drinking Gater aid ,Mr Sasquatch came up and said he was sorry ,his name was Karl ,and he was an investment Banker from Dallas and i fought well???
He did Viking re-enacting and was only invited there ,then the Wife gave him a Ham Sandwich.
Lance this may help you ,i couldn't remember what they called these ,i only saw a couple and they were very expensive.
But it is the big guns.
http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/gallery/military/catapult.htm