Frame stretch on an Euroarms 1851 Colt?

[His lordship.]

In the early 1980's I bought a Euroarms 1851 Colt replica with a steel frame in .36 cal.  This gun saw sizable use, I would put about 30-45 shots through it on a given shooting day, it was properly cleaned after the shooting session, and I loaded it lower than the maximum (it has been too long time wise to remember the load).  I started out with black powder and then went to Pyrodex.  

I shot the gun for about 7 years and then noticed that I was having misfires.  The cylinder was moving back and forth on the main rod a little bit, the wedge was tight, it had been replaced.  The barrel assembly was tight next to the frame, the 2 pins inside their holes.  And yet there was this sliding of the cylinder between the forcing cone of the barrel, and the frame back.

One guy I talked to at a gun show said all Colt cap and ball guns will shake loose unless you use really small amounts of powder.  The load he suggested was so miniscule that I can't imagine the gun hitting anything over 5 feet.  

I also had problems with this gun and my Armi San Marcos Walker 1847, with the hammer sometimes hitting the wall of the cylinder surrounding the nipple, causing the ugly misshaping of the cylinder rear.  I suspected that the hammer was dropping on a cylinder from time to time that was not lined up right.  Yet, I don't remember any timing problem.  Is this normal for the Colts to chew up the cylinder surface on the back of the cylinders? :?

I sold all of my black powder guns due to quality disapointments in the early 1990's but still have the cap n' ball urge to get back into it.  I even saved my powder horn!

Thanks

[John Traveler]

Yes, those problems you described are symptomatic of Colt replicas that have been shot a lot.

The less expensive Spanish and Italian-made BP copies lack the fine touches like proper heat treating and hardening of critical parts.

In particular, hands, pawls, triggers, and hammers may or may not be hard enough to hold up.  Cylinder ratchets routinely batter the back of the frame enough to generate end-shake resulting in increased barrel/cylinder gap and misfires.  Ratchet and pawl wear causes mis-timing as you described.

All the less-expensive Colt replicas are subject to these problems, especially the brass-framed guns.

What can be done about it?  Well, for one thing, spending more money on better-finished and durable BP revolvers would be one course.  Another is to avoid shooting heavy loads of BP substitue powders of maximum loads of BP..

[Flint]

What stretches on a Colt open top is the cylinder pin, and/or the threads on it or in the frame.  Was the cylinder pin loose?  They can be replaced by a factory part, or a scratch made part, from better steel. The basic frame doesn't stretch (unless upset threads can be called a stretch) because the cylinder pin and the wedge take the stress of running a ball down the tube in the opposite direction of the recoil.

[HWooldridge]

Another thing you can do is file the back side of the area where the barrel meets the frame (where the little pins are).  This decreases forcing cone gap BUT then you also have to lengthen the cylinder pin slot and possibly the slot in the barrel so the barrel can be wedged back tight.  If there isn't much slop, you can probably peen the edges of the wedge so it is wider and makes contact with the wider slot.  On real bad ones, you could build up the edge of the wedge with weld and grind back.

[1860]

Besides what's been mentioned, I've seen the rear of the wedge slot on the bbl or a 51 get peened over time and things loosen up.  It's really hard to say what went wrong with your guns since they are gone.  Not all Colts shoot loose and properly tuned and clean guns don't hit the edge of the nipple notch.  Try an Uberti if you can find one, they seem to hold up the best, my 1860 has over 6K on it with the original wedge.

The best trick I've found on Colts that like to eat the edges is to silver solder a pc of razor blade to the rear of the wedge and fit it to the gun by filing the front part.  Razor blades are real hard and it holds up well.

1860

[Flint]

I have found that the wedge from an 1872 Open-top is much harder than the percussion wedge.  It won't file, but can be stoned for fit or smoothness. It has no spring, it is solid and the matching wedge screw has a flat in the head to allow the wedge to be removed.  There is a cut in the wedge to pass the screw head to retain it when installed.  You can get the wedge ($10) from either Cimarron's website or from VTI gun parts' website. Call VTI, it's not listed in the part page yet.  This is a very solid feeling setup, and I have put the 1872 wedges in some of my cap & ball guns.

[His lordship.]

You guys have been helpful on the possible problem that killed my 1851 Euroarms Colt.  The cylinder pin seemed to be tight into the frame as I recall, but the insert that the wedge went into was mishapen due to wear.  To reduce wear on that area, I only pulled the wedge out (pounded with a rubber hammer) at the end of the shooting day for cleaning.  I shot the gun regularly for 7 years.  All my Colt black powder guns had to have the wedges pounded in and out with a rubber hammer to hold the gun intact.  My friend had his Armi San Marco 1860 Colt wedge loose enough to simply pull out the wedge with his hand.

I bought an EMF 1858 Remington revolver in 1990 that seemed to have better steel and finish over the circa 1980 Euroarms 1851 Colt, but sold it as the accuracy was moody.

I have been reading that the Pietta brand that Cabelas carries are pretty decent for the money.  I am thinking of the 1851 Colt or 1860 Colt.  The official Colt brand guns are too expensive and pretty to buy.  I used to primarily use pyrodex when I had my guns, started with regular black powder, but thought pyrodex would be less corrosive.  I let my 1847 Colt Walker go 2 days once without cleaning and there was some feint rust spots on the cylinder front.  Nothing serious, but a reminder that they should be cleaned within 24 hrs.  I usually wiped them down after shooting, and gave a full clean the next day in the morning without a problem.

I used to keep the loads down, not full charge, would I be better off with traditional black powder over any of the substitutes?  Which is stronger, the 1851 or the 1860 Colt?  I prefer the 1860 in feel, but the .36 caliber on the 1851 might reduce stress over the .44 with the 1860? :?  The little 1849 pocket Colt is something I have always wanted, the orginals were used as backups with the enlisted men in the Civil War, that seems to say that they were the equivalent of the snubby .38 Smith and Wesson of modern times, good for close quarter defense, but not something you want to target shoot with.

Thanks

[Flint]

I prefer Uberti guns to ASM, (no longer made) but Pietta has gotten much improved in the last few years.  Uberti are more authentic than Pietta, but there is little to fault in a Pietta 1858 Remington.  The 1851/61 Navy shooting its lighter ball and charge would be theoretically longer lived than an 1860 Army, which has the same frame but a bigger bore and cylinder, but either one will last fine if used right.  I have a Kirst 38 conversion in an 1851 and 1861 Uberti Navy and they stand up to the smokeless 38 wadcutter load so far.  Obviously, avoid the brass receiver frame, pretty as it is, it won't take the beating.  Pietta Remingtons (2) with R&D cylinders in 45Colt are fine shooters.  The only problem with 1851/60/61 Colts are the too short front sights, they shoot about 10 inches high at 50 feet.  Remingtons of recent manufacture shoot pretty much to the sight picture.

[Charlie Detroit]

Well, I got convinced to spend the money for the "Colt" brand M1861 revolver (I think the company was [is] called Colt Blackpowder Arms Co.) the first time I held it and worked the action. I put off firing it for some time, but now I'm using Clear Shot (the GOEX stuff) in it...it's non-corrosive, and the Colt is notoriously difficult to clean out the action. Remingtons are easy. That fouling goes everywhere, and if it's corrosive, cleaning out the action is the only choice.